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648 Replies Last post: Dec 12, 2007 12:59 PM by Guest Go to original post 1 ... 29 30 31 32 33 ... 44 Previous Next

lowgear1

65 posts since
Oct 28, 2006

450. Nov 18, 2007 4:34 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

Re Amber color,
Note to self: Tidy up car.
A daylight check of the trunk revealed a 10W30 container suspiciously close to the Gatorade bottle...hmm? The perils of pre-dawn work-outs?
The good news; the bathroom scale combined with shall we say a "pale amber color" seems to indicate I was only perhaps a half quart low....quite normal for an aspiring marathoner I would guess. I've been accused of being a quart low on occasion!
Ciao!

jjwaverly42

337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

451. Dec 26, 2007 7:02 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

Finished my first 18-miler since last year's Philly Marathon. Also ran 60 total for the week. I've purposefully taken a long time to build back to this
volume. Having run the last 22 weeks at or under MAF.

Todays run felt the best of this last 3-week cycle. Felt strong and slowed a little during the last miles to keep under MAF, but could have run harder and longer. I couldn't see my watch in the last mile it was so dark, and the light would only stay on for a few seconds at a time, so I averaged over MAF by a beat (for the last mile). No biggie.

On the nutrition side of things. My wife and I walked a lot yesterday and slept like logs last night, not getting up until almost 11:00. I had no time
to eat before the long run, thinking I'd be getting out by 12:00 or so, but I dillydallied and didn't get out on the course until 1:30ish. I never ate all day until after the run (5:00 pm). Just drank 6 oz. water every half hour or so. Never felt hungry during the run. There were no lows in energy at all. Yummy fat.

bike trail 38º at finish, sunny then dark
12:29 103
11:39 109
11:42 112
11:20 116
11:44 117
11:44 120
12:06 120
12:00 123
11:36 124
11:59 126
11:54 129
11:36 132
11:49 133
12:10 134
12:00 134
12:08 134
12:22 134
12:29 135

3:34:56
11:55 ave.

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
profile[/URL" target="_blank">

http://This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Nov-18-2007).

lowgear1

65 posts since
Oct 28, 2006

452. Nov 18, 2007 8:12 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

Awesome 18 miler Jimmy!

I especially like how you manage to smoothly increase HR over the duration of your run by starting significantly under MAF.

I've just recently attempted to do likewise, although my current long run is about 10 miles, I've noticed that I'm much more fresh at the completion. Many runs I feel like continuing but respect the 10% rule. Although my pace is very modest, I'm starting to see signs of hope.

Posts like yours give a great insight into these subtle ways to use MAF type training. Thanks for the report.

Guest

453. Nov 18, 2007 8:41 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

So...I'm two weeks into trying this and I feel as though it's the running equivalent of a snipe hunt and that people are secretly laughing at me. I averaged 13:07 during my first run on 11/4 to 15:26 today on the same course. I didn't expect to get faster overnight but I never dreamed that I would get slower by nearly two and a half minutes per mile. Heck, I can practically walk that fast.

I want to believe but I'm not sure how much longer I can stick with this. I'm WAY more frustrated now than I was during the first session.

jjwaverly42

337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

454. Nov 18, 2007 9:22 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by cjbruin:
So...I'm two weeks into trying this and I feel as though it's the running equivalent of a snipe hunt and that people are secretly laughing at me. I averaged 13:07 during my first run on 11/4 to 15:26 today on the same course. I didn't expect to get faster overnight but I never dreamed that I would get slower by nearly two and a half minutes per mile. Heck, I can practically walk that fast.

I want to believe but I'm not sure how much longer I can stick with this. I'm WAY more frustrated now than I was during the first session.<HR>

If you could, lay out your mileage per week and the length of your runs since the first run at 13:07, that would help. Also MAF information ((age and all that).

Whenever I start MAF training, I'll go through a period of slowing after the first runs. My hunch is that the slow twitch fibers are getting trained exclusively for the first time in awhile (and in newbie cases, the first time ever), and they are wearing out and I'm actually running tired. In some cases, overtraining might be happening, and rest or a reduction in mileage might be the right choice. My experience is that the downward curve eventually reverses itself--probably because the slow twitch fibers are starting to adapt to being the main event in the muscles.

Don't hold me too this, but 15.26 will probably be very near as slow as you are going to get. You might slow a bit more, but if you stick with the plan, think long term, it will reverse itself and start going the other way.

Just to qualify myself, I'm a 3:22 marathoner, and during this current aerobic phase, I have run as slow as 13:39 and had quite a few runs 13+. I have had to walk on several occasions, including today on one hill, to keep my HR down. I know the training works for me when it comes race time, so I go through it and accept it as part of the journey to realizing potential.

--Jimmy

@@@@[/URL" target="_blank">
MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

jjwaverly42

337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

455. Nov 18, 2007 9:33 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by lowgear1:
Awesome 18 miler Jimmy!

I especially like how you manage to smoothly increase HR over the duration of your run by starting significantly under MAF.

I've just recently attempted to do likewise, although my current long run is about 10 miles, I've noticed that I'm much more fresh at the completion. Many runs I feel like continuing but respect the 10% rule. Although my pace is very modest, I'm starting to see signs of hope.

Posts like yours give a great insight into these subtle ways to use MAF type training. Thanks for the report. <HR>

Thanks, LG. I do my long runs that way because I'd be slowing down way too much in the end if I did them more like an MAF test. I'm still slowing a bit anyway, as I have more training to do, but not the whole time. I like to run marathons as even as possible, leaning toward a negative split. So, I try to construct my long runs so I feel like I'm running an even tempo the whole way. The splits won't necessarily be even due to hills, long upgrades and downgrades, and head and back wind, but the feel is even.
Keep going!

--Jimmy

@@@@[/URL" target="_blank">
MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

Guest

456. Nov 18, 2007 11:43 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

Thanks jj...my best guess is that you've made some very fair assessments. I'm sure...just like everything else I do...I've over done it a bit and this should have been expected.

I'm 40 and recently had some HR testing by a doc so I feel I am dead on with my HR (Max HR 193; LT 172). I am trying to stay below 138 (which as you can imagine has been a challenge) and I'm sure it is extra tough because I've never tried to focus on building my aerobic engine. Anyway, here are the runs that I've done in the last two weeks. I have also been riding my bike and doing my best to stay below 138 in those workouts as well.

11/4 - 6.86 mi @ 13:07 Avg (Flat)
Mi 1 - 11:56
Mi 2 - 12:24
Mi 3 - 13:39
Mi 4 - 13:53
Mi 5 - 12:53
Mi 6 - 13:24
Mi 7 - 13.48 (0.86 mi)

11/6 - 4.92 mi @ 14:26 (Flat)
Mi 1 - 13:27
Mi 2 - 14:38
Mi 3 - 14:45
Mi 4 - 14:35
Mi 5 - 14.44 (0.92 mi)

11/8 - 6.95 mi @ 13:57 (Fairly Hilly)
Mi 1 - 13:02
Mi 2 - 14:52
Mi 3 - 16.31
Mi 4 - 12.25
Mi 5 - 12.38
Mi 6 - 13.52
Mi 7 - 14.21 (0.95 mi)

11/11 - 9.26 mi @ 14:09 (Hilly)
Mi 1 - 13:54
Mi 2 - 15:17
Mi 3 - 15:36
Mi 4 - 13:14
Mi 5 - 14:48
Mi 6 - 13:04
Mi 7 - 13:25
Mi 8 - 14:09
Mi 9 - 13:55
Mi 10 - 14:14 (0.26 mi)

11/14 - 3.43 mi @ 14:34 (Flat...and COLD)
Mi 1 - 16.22
Mi 2 - 13:56
Mi 3 - 13:54
Mi 4 - 13.23 (0.43 mi)

11/18 - 9.46 mi
Mi 1 - 14:04
Mi 2 - 16:28
Mi 3 - 15:38
Mi 4 - 15:39
Mi 5 - 15:27
Mi 6 - 14:38
Mi 7 - 14:59
Mi 8 - 15:31
Mi 9 - 15:51
Mi 10 - 16:42 (0.46 mi)

Cashmason

460 posts since
Oct 29, 2007

457. Nov 18, 2007 11:52 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

I'm baaaaack.

My hr monitor hasn't worked since last June. Finally bought a Garmin 305. Works tons better than the old Garmin 301. Monitor strap is more comfortable, sensors are a lot bigger and GPS chip is more accurate

14.5 miles today ave hr 122. Legs a bit tired but not bad. No where near in shape for early January marathon, but oh well. Heart and lungs are great, connective tissue and muscles still need to be built up.

I still like tri's better than just running, even if I still push the Yay I didn't drown button after the swims.

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

458. Nov 19, 2007 5:16 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by cjbruin:

I'm 40 and recently had some HR testing by a doc so I feel I am dead on with my HR (Max HR 193; LT 172). I am trying to stay below 138 (which as you can imagine has been a challenge) and I'm sure it is extra tough because I've never tried to focus on building my aerobic engine. Anyway, here are the runs that I've done in the last two weeks. I have also been riding my bike and doing my best to stay below 138 in those workouts as well.
<HR>

Just out of curiosity, did they also give you an RQ (or "R" or "RER")
profile at each heart rate?

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
MyStuff[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ[/URL" target="_blank">
My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

459. Nov 19, 2007 5:19 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cashmason:
I'm baaaaack.

My hr monitor hasn't worked since last June. Finally bought a Garmin 305. Works tons better than the old Garmin 301. Monitor strap is more comfortable, sensors are a lot bigger and GPS chip is more accurate

14.5 miles today ave hr 122. Legs a bit tired but not bad. No where near in shape for early January marathon, but oh well. Heart and lungs are great, connective tissue and muscles still need to be built up.

I still like tri's better than just running, even if I still push the Yay I didn't drown button after the swims.

<HR>

Glad to see you back here!

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
MyStuff[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ[/URL" target="_blank">
My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

lowgear1

65 posts since
Oct 28, 2006

460. Nov 19, 2007 9:20 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

cjbruin,

Welcome aboard the 'Slow boat to China', or as we like to call MAF training. Maybe 'Slow boat to China' takes on a new meaning given the 2008 Olympics are being held in Beijing. That destination would seem a bit ambitious to a beginning maffer however, being only a year away.

Anyway, take it from me this maffing is the real deal.About a year ago when I kept hearing about 'fat this' and 'fat that' I was sporting about the equivalent of a 5 plus pound can of Crisco around the mid section so I said heck all I need to do is grab a pair of running shoes and I'm good to go. Sort of like 'bring your own beer' only in this case 'bring your own fat' Subsequently I've made a bit of progress and have turned the corner from somewhat skeptical thoughts that I think are almost universal for anyone starting this to a growing confidence. In fact at the completion of many of my runs, as the Brits might say: "I'm keen to go on." If I can gradually ratchet up my mileage I'm hoping to be climbing the charts to 12 with a bullet.

Bear in mind that I'm a 58 year old male with no running background, which oddly is a blessing looking back, as I never suffered the "stigma"
of running "too slow." For me there was only one direction to go. I'm confident that your MAF pace trajectory will eclipse mine in short order. So stay the course even though there are bound to be some choppy seas along the way, you will soon be sailing across the finish line.

Oh, one final tip...if you do embark on a luxury cruise ship headed for Beijing, and are on deck early one morning sipping on a latte, be sure to keep a hand free to use as a lid in case Ryan Hall comes blasting by on a tempo run...the turbulance might get excessive!

"Elderly man River....that Elderly man River....he jes keep 'rollin along" (P.C. version of "Old man River")

LG1

jjwaverly42

337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

461. Nov 19, 2007 10:32 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by cjbruin:
Thanks jj...my best guess is that you've made some very fair assessments. I'm sure...just like everything else I do...I've over done it a bit and this should have been expected.

I'm 40 and recently had some HR testing by a doc so I feel I am dead on with my HR (Max HR 193; LT 172). I am trying to stay below 138 (which as you can imagine has been a challenge) and I'm sure it is extra tough because I've never tried to focus on building my aerobic engine. Anyway, here are the runs that I've done in the last two weeks. I have also been riding my bike and doing my best to stay below 138 in those workouts as well.

11/4 - 6.86 mi @ 13:07 Avg (Flat)
Mi 1 - 11:56
Mi 2 - 12:24
Mi 3 - 13:39
Mi 4 - 13:53
Mi 5 - 12:53
Mi 6 - 13:24
Mi 7 - 13.48 (0.86 mi)

11/6 - 4.92 mi @ 14:26 (Flat)
Mi 1 - 13:27
Mi 2 - 14:38
Mi 3 - 14:45
Mi 4 - 14:35
Mi 5 - 14.44 (0.92 mi)

11/8 - 6.95 mi @ 13:57 (Fairly Hilly)
Mi 1 - 13:02
Mi 2 - 14:52
Mi 3 - 16.31
Mi 4 - 12.25
Mi 5 - 12.38
Mi 6 - 13.52
Mi 7 - 14.21 (0.95 mi)

11/11 - 9.26 mi @ 14:09 (Hilly)
Mi 1 - 13:54
Mi 2 - 15:17
Mi 3 - 15:36
Mi 4 - 13:14
Mi 5 - 14:48
Mi 6 - 13:04
Mi 7 - 13:25
Mi 8 - 14:09
Mi 9 - 13:55
Mi 10 - 14:14 (0.26 mi)

11/14 - 3.43 mi @ 14:34 (Flat...and COLD)
Mi 1 - 16.22
Mi 2 - 13:56
Mi 3 - 13:54
Mi 4 - 13.23 (0.43 mi)

11/18 - 9.46 mi
Mi 1 - 14:04
Mi 2 - 16:28
Mi 3 - 15:38
Mi 4 - 15:39
Mi 5 - 15:27
Mi 6 - 14:38
Mi 7 - 14:59
Mi 8 - 15:31
Mi 9 - 15:51
Mi 10 - 16:42 (0.46 mi)<HR>

You've done 6 runs in 15 days:

7, 5, 7 the first week (19 miles)
10, 4, 10 the second week (24 miles)

An increase of 26% from week 1 to week 2
Your longest run increased by 43% from 7 to 10 miles.

I'm not sure of your history before starting the program, so those sharp increases may or may not be affecting your pace times. If you were just starting out as a newbie runner or after a layoff, it might be too much too soon. You are cross-training in between, so the days off aren't complete rest. Biking can affect running, and if you are doing MAF there as well, your slow twitchers are getting a nice jolt and need time to adapt. This could mean 12-24 weeks or longer, so be patient.

Whatever the case, give it time. Your experience is not unlike mine when I started the aerobic phase for the first time in 06, and the one this year that I am currently enjoying. Rest is important (until you reach Level Leitnerj--where you become eternal and don't need rest), so make sure you take a complete rest day every week from running and biking. Take a walk or something easy. I suggest that you build your volume no more than 5-7% per week, and don't increase your long runs too fast either (1 mile per week is good).

There is no shame in walking during a run if the running gets slower than 14-15 minutes per mile, although a gaggle of elites (who never say hello to me on the bike trail when I say hello to them) saw me walking a hill, tackled me and drew reddish W's all over my pink flesh. Still, I felt no shame.

I'm curious about one more thing. What is your HR doing during the runs (i.e. your heart rate performance)? Are you staying close to yur MAF the whole time? Or are you warming up to MAF -10 or MAF -15 by the 2nd or 3rd mile?

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
profile[/URL" target="_blank">

Guest

462. Nov 19, 2007 10:41 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by leitnerj:
Just out of curiosity, did they also give you an RQ (or "R" or "RER")
profile at each heart rate?

<HR>

Well...since I don't know what any of those are, I'm going to say "no"

Below is the info they gave me after the test. The test itself was done on a bicycle treadmill starting at 100W and increasing by 50W every two minutes.

Height - 5'8"
Weight - 227
Body Fat - 29.2%
Lean Body Mass - 161 lbs

Resting HR - 60 - Very Good
Resting Blood Pressure - 140/88 - Slightly High
Max HR - 193 - Excellent
1 & 2 Min Recovery HR - 163/126 - Very Good
Anerobic Threshold - 172 - Very Good
Max Oxygen Consumption (ml/Kg/min) - 40.3 - Good
Total Time on Bicycle 7:45 - Good
Power Output (Watts) 300 - Very Good

This essentially told me that I'm a pretty fit fat guy. The test was about six weeks ago and I'm doing my follow-up this Wednesday.

Guest

463. Nov 19, 2007 11:03 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I'm curious about one more thing. What is your HR doing during the runs (i.e. your heart rate performance)? Are you staying close to yur MAF the whole time? Or are you warming up to MAF -10 or MAF -15 by the 2nd or 3rd mile?<HR>

I have my Garmin alarms set to go off if I exceed 138 or drop below 130 and I try very hard to stay in that range. It seems that I get carried away sometimes and break the top range but I try to get it back down asap. This happens mostly on hills. Not sure if this helps but here's the breakdown from each run.

11/4 - Avg HR 135 -- Below 138 - 1:20:29; Above 138 - 4:27
11/6 - Avg HR 134 -- Below 1:02:34; Above 5:24
11/8 - Avg HR 136 -- Below 1:21:54; Above 7:48
11/11 - Avg HR 134 -- Below 1:59:47; Above 4:51
11/14 - Avg HR 135 -- Below 42:30; Above 4:10
11/18 - Avg HR 136 -- Below 1:56:13; Above 18:33

Note: When I go above 138, my HR typically goes to 139-140 and very rarely above 141. If I hear my alarm I immediately slow my pace a bit to try to bring it back in the zone. This was tough yesterday as I was getting super-irritated during the run so I was probably adding a few beats just from that.

jjwaverly42

337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

464. Nov 19, 2007 11:59 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone, Mark Allen, Hadd, Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by cjbruin:
I have my Garmin alarms set to go off if I exceed 138 or drop below 130 and I try very hard to stay in that range. It seems that I get carried away sometimes and break the top range but I try to get it back down asap. This happens mostly on hills. Not sure if this helps but here's the breakdown from each run.

11/4 - Avg HR 135 -- Below 138 - 1:20:29; Above 138 - 4:27
11/6 - Avg HR 134 -- Below 1:02:34; Above 5:24
11/8 - Avg HR 136 -- Below 1:21:54; Above 7:48
11/11 - Avg HR 134 -- Below 1:59:47; Above 4:51
11/14 - Avg HR 135 -- Below 42:30; Above 4:10
11/18 - Avg HR 136 -- Below 1:56:13; Above 18:33

Note: When I go above 138, my HR typically goes to 139-140 and very rarely above 141. If I hear my alarm I immediately slow my pace a bit to try to bring it back in the zone. This was tough yesterday as I was getting super-irritated during the run so I was probably adding a few beats just from that.

<HR>

As a suggestion, try warming up your first 1-3 miles (depending on the distance, you can even take longer) getting to 128 BPM. The hold that pace, letting your heart rate gradually get up to 138 by the last few miles.
This will insure that you aren't starting out too fast without a good warm-up, and will help to even off your splits a bit more, and perhaps get more out of your run with less tiring by the end.

Always pushing to close to MAF through most of the run basically makes it an MAF test every time you go out, and that might be adding extra stress.

For fun you can try the aerobic intervals (explained on the first page of this thread) or aerobic hills and/or downhills.

Take care.
Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
profile[/URL" target="_blank">

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