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jb944

162 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

480. Nov 20, 2007 4:04 PM

in response to: formationflier

DavidD - It's probably too early to tell whether I am progressing aerobically, since I didn't start MAF until I was done with C25K. I'm sticking to 30 minutes of running 3x a week for now and walking/biking on the off days. Eventually I want to move to the OHR program.

Re the bone density - Osteoporosis runs in my family and I have early stages of it, so have had to go on a drug for it (and I always put up a fight before ever taking prescription drugs!). I monitor my calcium intake each day and was told to do weight bearing exercises. I've also had some back issues, so have used the weights to strengthen my core and back. I mentioned the comments from here to my chiro today and he said I can't give up the weights. That, with the exercise over the past year has helped me tremendously. (13 pounds lighter, 3 dress sizes smaller, more energy, etc.) I'll keep up my log and see what happens over the next few months.

teresaa spencer

17 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

481. Nov 21, 2007 7:42 AM

in response to: formationflier

What's the slowest mile that anyone has logged using the MAF system? I've been at this for almost 9 weeks. My MAF is 127 (age 43 minus 10 for blood pressure medicine), and I was just able to "run" my first complete miles without walking to stay under MAF. I have to say, I'm discouraged. Although I've been active my whole life (I ran a half marathon last year), I realized from the excellent FAQ's at the beginning of this thread that I was in serious need of this type of training, but I guess I didn't realize how bad I was aerobically. Well, this week has proved it, my aerobic system stinks. My first logged "runs" (I'm not sure both of my feet are ever off the ground at the same time) was nearly 20 minutes. I can certainly walk much faster than that. I'm definitely going to finish out the 12 weeks. I'm hoping to see at least a little more improvement. Sorry, I just had to vent a little. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

jjwaverly42

337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

482. Nov 21, 2007 9:07 AM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by teresaa spencer:
What's the slowest mile that anyone has logged using the MAF system? I've been at this for almost 9 weeks. My MAF is 127 (age 43 minus 10 for blood pressure medicine), and I was just able to "run" my first complete miles without walking to stay under MAF. I have to say, I'm discouraged. Although I've been active my whole life (I ran a half marathon last year), I realized from the excellent FAQ's at the beginning of this thread that I was in serious need of this type of training, but I guess I didn't realize how bad I was aerobically. Well, this week has proved it, my aerobic system stinks. My first logged "runs" (I'm not sure both of my feet are ever off the ground at the same time) was nearly 20 minutes. I can certainly walk much faster than that. I'm definitely going to finish out the 12 weeks. I'm hoping to see at least a little more improvement. Sorry, I just had to vent a little. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!<HR>

Congratulations! You are the slowest ever! :> )
Your Fat-Burning Turtle Award will arrive Fedex (you have to sign for it, so be home all day).

Developing your system is a long commitment, but if you think long term, it will pay off. If you are running 20 minute miles at 127 at age 43, then you really need the work. Building volume 5% per week will help your progress. As far as the -10 for High Blood Pressure medicine, I know a few people think of their HPB medicine as part of their normal system. It's something they will always be taking, like water, and don't feel they need to take off the extra 10 from their MAF. The idea of that -10 is reduce stress on the body. Many medications add stress in addition to the stress the physical problem is bringing. Maffetone made the adjustment most likely in response to sinking MAF tests in his runners who started taking medication. It is something you can play with. See what happens if you run in the 122-137 bpm zone. If you start to improve, and you feel healthy, then maybe you don't need the -10. Just a thought. Honest self-assessment is always the main rule.

Give it time. "Patience Phase." You are allowed 2 more really good whines.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
profile[/URL" target="_blank">

lowgear1

65 posts since
Oct 28, 2006

483. Nov 21, 2007 10:16 AM

in response to: formationflier

R.I.P. Mr. Whipple.........

You ran a wonderful race

LG1
rollin' on
still bringing up the rear.....sorry

DavidD063

361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007

484. Nov 21, 2007 11:39 AM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by teresaa spencer:
What's the slowest mile that anyone has logged using the MAF system? I've been at this for almost 9 weeks. My MAF is 127 (age 43 minus 10 for blood pressure medicine), and I was just able to "run" my first complete miles without walking to stay under MAF. I have to say, I'm discouraged. Although I've been active my whole life (I ran a half marathon last year), I realized from the excellent FAQ's at the beginning of this thread that I was in serious need of this type of training, but I guess I didn't realize how bad I was aerobically. Well, this week has proved it, my aerobic system stinks. My first logged "runs" (I'm not sure both of my feet are ever off the ground at the same time) was nearly 20 minutes. I can certainly walk much faster than that. I'm definitely going to finish out the 12 weeks. I'm hoping to see at least a little more improvement. Sorry, I just had to vent a little. <HR>

Not improving MAF pace in a reasonable time should be a red flag (i.e., something is not right and you need to find out what). Let?s look at the problem of not improving your aerobic base pace differently. Let?s consider what factors could affect both aerobic function AND blood pressure (to pick another problem you note). One obvious factor (to me) is insulin; fat burning is reduced by too much insulin, and blood pressure rises with too much insulin. Normalizing insulin could solve both problems. The most common cause of high insulin is too much refined carbs and sugars. If you could reduce or eliminate BP meds, train at a higher HR and still be aerobic, and build your base (and get faster), that would be great.

Long Run Nick

265 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

485. Nov 21, 2007 12:12 PM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by lowgear1:
Hey Long Run Nick,

I've gotta say that I'm just one of many to whom you've been a tremendous inspiration to. Reading your posts has gone a long way towards me taking the plunge....hold the phone..thats swimming..I mean taking the first steps towards running. I could in fact be the poster boy to your suggestion to take things slow..trust me on that one.. LOL

Your accomplishments are legendary. I'm looking forward to your attempt to break your prior mary time from your youth. That's next Feb in B'ham isn't it? I'll be pulling for you!

Rollin' on for now,

LG1 <HR>

LG1,
Thanks for the nice words. Actually, I am 17 days from my marathon--Huntsville Rocket City Marathon. I have trained well and have had some excellent coaching from aharmer and some extra insights from Jesse. Who says you can't teach an old horse (thoroughbred) new tricks? My goal is to run faster than I did 30 yrs ago when I ran my first marathon in Huntsville. Back then it was called the Joe Steele Rocket City marathon. In '77 I was 34 and ran 3:58:00. My plan is 9m/m pace and finish around 3:55. The MAF training allowed me to increase my mileage from 40-45 a week to 55-60 miles a week and go from 5 to 6 days a week of running. The best part is I can't remember feeling as strong and fresh when finishing 10-15 mile+ runs. I recently ran(4 weeks ago) a 1/2 marathon and was comfortable averaging around 8:15 a mile. Actually I cruised the first 10 and finished the last 3 miles around 7:40 pace.

So with over 65,000 miles of running over the last 31 1/2 years I am probably more excited about running than I have ever been--and that, my friend, is saying a lot.

2008 goal: 50 mile road ultra--under 10 hrs. My PR for a 50 road course was 8:12 waaay back in the early 80's Haven't run an ultra since around '93-94. Actually I ran my first marathon in 21 years this past Feb here in Tallahassee (4:07) and didn't run very smart. I know I am wiser, better trained and more confident due to my MAF training.

Yikes! I can ramble. Oh, Jimmy W has been an inspiration and his posts are fun to read. Nick

teresaa spencer

17 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

486. Nov 21, 2007 12:26 PM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DavidD:

Not improving MAF pace in a reasonable time should be a red flag (i.e., something is not right and you need to find out what). Let?s look at the problem of not improving your aerobic base pace differently. Let?s consider what factors could affect both aerobic function AND blood pressure (to pick another problem you note). One obvious factor (to me) is insulin; fat burning is reduced by too much insulin, and blood pressure rises with too much insulin. Normalizing insulin could solve both problems. The most common cause of high insulin is too much refined carbs and sugars. If you could reduce or eliminate BP meds, train at a higher HR and still be aerobic, and build your base (and get faster), that would be great.<HR>

I have tried to cut back on my carbs, refined and otherwise, via Maffetone's and Middleton's books, although not eliminating them completely. Maybe I should do the 2 week test that Maffetone suggests and see if I see any marked improvement then. I know it's discouraging for everyone at first, but I just thought I would have seen a little improvement by now. Thanks for the feedback, DavidD. : )

DavidD063

361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007

487. Nov 21, 2007 1:08 PM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by teresaa spencer:
I have tried to cut back on my carbs, refined and otherwise, via Maffetone's and Middleton's books, although not eliminating them completely. Maybe I should do the 2 week test that Maffetone suggests and see if I see any marked improvement then. I know it's discouraging for everyone at first, but I just thought I would have seen a little improvement by now. Thanks for the feedback, DavidD. : )<HR>

Sounds like a good starting point. Make sure your pace can be reproduced (as in an MAF test). There was a two week test thread on CR but one of the advertisers complained and it was removed. But I think Maffetone's web site has book excerpts on it.

jjwaverly42

337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

488. Dec 26, 2007 7:02 AM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by teresaa spencer:
I have tried to cut back on my carbs, refined and otherwise, via Maffetone's and Middleton's books, although not eliminating them completely. Maybe I should do the 2 week test that Maffetone suggests and see if I see any marked improvement then. I know it's discouraging for everyone at first, but I just thought I would have seen a little improvement by now. Thanks for the feedback, DavidD. : )<HR>

I tried the two-week test, cutting out as much refined carbs as possible. Suddenly all my paces got worse. After 3-4 weeks of that, I started examining just how many carbs I was eating and it was ranging about 48-50% of total intake. I upped it to 60% using complex carbs, which was probably the % I was eating before the test (I now have a 60-20-20 ratio). Suddenly, my paces started dropping and are now approaching back to the speeds I was running before I cut carbs drastically. I don't believe carbs are bad at all, and in this experiment of one, I need them on the volume that I am running, or my body gets stressed.

I used this thing called Caloriecount.com that helped me analyze what I was eating. There are probably a dozen of such things on the net like Fitday, etc.

Just my experience.

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
profile[/URL" target="_blank">

http://This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Nov-21-2007).

teresaa spencer

17 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

489. Nov 21, 2007 2:21 PM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Congratulations! You are the slowest ever! :> )
Your Fat-Burning Turtle Award will arrive Fedex (you have to sign for it, so be home all day).

Developing your system is a long commitment, but if you think long term, it will pay off. If you are running 20 minute miles at 127 at age 43, then you really need the work. Building volume 5% per week will help your progress. As far as the -10 for High Blood Pressure medicine, I know a few people think of their HPB medicine as part of their normal system. It's something they will always be taking, like water, and don't feel they need to take off the extra 10 from their MAF. The idea of that -10 is reduce stress on the body. Many medications add stress in addition to the stress the physical problem is bringing. Maffetone made the adjustment most likely in response to sinking MAF tests in his runners who started taking medication. It is something you can play with. See what happens if you run in the 122-137 bpm zone. If you start to improve, and you feel healthy, then maybe you don't need the -10. Just a thought. Honest self-assessment is always the main rule.

Give it time. "Patience Phase." You are allowed 2 more really good whines.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
profile[/URL" target="_blank">

<HR>

I'd like to thank...the little people, that helped me to achieve this goal. And I'd also like the folks behind daylight savings time. That 20 minute mile was much easier under the cover of darkness. : )

I'm doing my best to keep the faith. It's almost like it's personal now. I have to master the MAF! I do think I'll try what you suggested with moving my MAF up just a bit. I didn't add 5 back in for being physically active for several years, so I don't really think it would be cheating. Thanks for the feedback!

lowgear1

65 posts since
Oct 28, 2006

490. Nov 21, 2007 3:12 PM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
LG1,
Thanks for the nice words. Actually, I am 17 days from my marathon--Huntsville Rocket City Marathon. I have trained well and have had some excellent coaching from aharmer and some extra insights from Jesse. Who says you can't teach an old horse (thoroughbred) new tricks? My goal is to run faster than I did 30 yrs ago when I ran my first marathon in Huntsville. Back then it was called the Joe Steele Rocket City marathon. In '77 I was 34 and ran 3:58:00. My plan is 9m/m pace and finish around 3:55. The MAF training allowed me to increase my mileage from 40-45 a week to 55-60 miles a week and go from 5 to 6 days a week of running. The best part is I can't remember feeling as strong and fresh when finishing 10-15 mile+ runs. I recently ran(4 weeks ago) a 1/2 marathon and was comfortable averaging around 8:15 a mile. Actually I cruised the first 10 and finished the last 3 miles around 7:40 pace.

So with over 65,000 miles of running over the last 31 1/2 years I am probably more excited about running than I have ever been--and that, my friend, is saying a lot.

2008 goal: 50 mile road ultra--under 10 hrs. My PR for a 50 road course was 8:12 waaay back in the early 80's Haven't run an ultra since around '93-94. Actually I ran my first marathon in 21 years this past Feb here in Tallahassee (4:07) and didn't run very smart. I know I am wiser, better trained and more confident due to my MAF training.

Yikes! I can ramble. Oh, Jimmy W has been an inspiration and his posts are fun to read. Nick <HR>

Long Run Nick,

Thanks for the update. Don't know how I came up with that B'ham venue??

WOW, I imagine T-day in addition to tapering could be a little challenging, but it sounds like a certain Hoss is practically kickin' down the stall and sittin' on ready!!

Certainly looking forward to a RR.

.....And a 2008 50 mile road ultra?........Whoa!...

I'm still working on the 'hitch in my giddy-up, or at least that's my current excuse.

Godspeed Nick!

LG1
..gingerly rollin'

DavidD063

361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007

491. Nov 21, 2007 4:01 PM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I tried the two-week test, cutting out as much refined carbs as possible. Suddenly all my paces got worse. After 3-4 weeks of that, I started examining just how many carbs I was eating and it was ranging about 48-50% of total intake. I upped it to 60% using complex carbs, which was probably the % I was eating before the test (I now have a 60-20-20 ratio). Suddenly, my paces started dropping and are now approaching back to the speeds I was running before I cut carbs drastically. I don't believe carbs are bad at all, and in this experiment of one, I need them on the volume that I am running, or my body gets stressed.

I used this thing called Caloriecount.com that helped me analyze what I was eating. There are probably a dozen of such things on the net like Fitday, etc.

Just my experience.

--Jimmy
<HR>

The two week test is only two weeks.

My experience of working with athletes and the two week test is that most get faster at the same heart rate. It can also be seen in our tread mill tests with increased fat burning (sometimes dramatically).

bdags061

61 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

492. Dec 26, 2007 7:02 AM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DavidD:

Sounds like a good starting point. Make sure your pace can be reproduced (as in an MAF test). There was a two week test thread on CR but one of the advertisers complained and it was removed. But I think Maffetone's web site has book excerpts on it.<HR>

Here is a link to the "two week test".

http://www.philmaffetone.com/index.cfm?CFID=30270985&CFTOKEN=65674290[/URL" target="_blank">

It sounds like a modified version of the Atkins Diet to me. I tried Atkins a few years ago when I was fat and out of shape. I'm not a fan of Atkins, but I understand the difference between "good carbs" and "bad carbs." I had plenty of energy when I was on this diet, but I wasn't nearly as active as I am now. Maybe I'll give it a try in a few months.

ETA: It looks like the above link might not work. If you go to philmaffetone.com, it's on there. There's even a PDF version that you can print out.

http://This message has been edited by bdags (edited Nov-21-2007).

DavidD063

361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007

493. Nov 21, 2007 5:02 PM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by bdags:
Here is a link to the "two week test".

http://www.philmaffetone.com/index.cfm?CFID=30270985&CFTOKEN=65674290[/URL" target="_blank">

It sounds like a modified version of the Atkins Diet to me. I tried Atkins a few years ago when I was fat and out of shape. I'm not a fan of Atkins, but I understand the difference between "good carbs" and "bad carbs." I had plenty of energy when I was on this diet, but I wasn't nearly as active as I am now. Maybe I'll give it a try in a few months.

ETA: It looks like the above link might not work. If you go to philmaffetone.com, it's on there. There's even a PDF version that you can print out.<HR>

Very different than Atkins. I'm not an Atkins fan at all (I'm anti-atkins actually).

I've trained high milage during the test (swim, bike, run) at MAF when I first did it years ago, although never raced.

willamona

384 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

494. Nov 21, 2007 6:05 PM

in response to: formationflier

quote:<HR>Originally posted by teresaa spencer:
I'd like to thank...the little people, that helped me to achieve this goal. And I'd also like the folks behind daylight savings time. That 20 minute mile was much easier under the cover of darkness. : )

<HR>

LMAO

You will fit in well here.

------------------
***********
My myspace[/URL" target="_blank">
No Complaining[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ [/URL" target="_blank"> Because many have asked...
You have poopie pants.

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