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42993 Views 649 Replies Latest reply: Aug 17, 2011 4:05 PM by sinarapan RSS Go to original post 1 ... 40 41 42 43 44 Previous Next
  • DavidD063 Rookie 360 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007

    quote:


    Originally posted by streeetch:

    ...DavidD mentioned: "If you want to see what carbs do to your fat-burning, eat pancakes or pasta before a treadmill test and look at your RQ; you'll see very little fat burning."

    Would eating at some point within the test affect the fat burning ratio? ie 30/60 minutes into a run

    Here is #19 from the FAQ. The last line is what caught me attention.

    19. Do I need to eat “low carb” to be successful at this? Is this a promotion of “low carb” eating?
    No to both. The key is to avoid carbs prior to training runs or races. Better results may be obtained by avoiding carbs during training runs, but there’s no solid evidence.

    ... As my runs get longer I'm thinking about adding Ensure into the mix. Maybe I'm over thinking this?


     




    eating some carbs during a treadmill test could improve the endurance factor (longer fat burning) on a long test -- all depending on the person, the previous meal, their health and training.

    You don't need to eat low carb, you need to eat very low (or no) refined carb to get the maximum benefits.

    ensure? Terrible idea (bad stuff). Read Maffetone's In Fitness and In Health, but Training and Eating for Endurance (he's coming out with a new version early in '08 that combines both books) are best if you're a serious athlete.

  • jjwaverly_42 Pro 388 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    quote:


    Originally posted by Long Run Nick:

    After 7 months of MAF training/went from 40-45 mi weeks to 55-60 mile weeks. Did some great sharpening. Strong race results:10K and a 1/2 and smart tapering I stepped to the line at the Huntsville Rocket City marathon to beat my initial marathon time(3:58) there back 30 yrs ago in 1977 (34 at the time).

    Results: DNF. Only the 3rd DNF in over 400 races. Never got on track. HR was higher low 170's when in training I could run 9's comfortably at mid 150's. I MAF'd at 132 for over 1,200 miles Didn't feel right at even mile 2goal pace was 9 min miles. At 5 miles I would have stopped but hoped things would get better. 10 miles right on 9 min miles but cramping in the shouldersrarely have experienced that. A lot of effert to maintain pace. At the 1/2 still on pace but looking for emergency tentwas told it was a mile or so down the road mile 15no tentno real help. Started slowing downfinally past mile 17-- 4 guys were in lawn chairs in front of their houseI stopped and told them I was done. They thought I was joking. One of them gave me his jacket and another volunteered to get me back to my hotel at the start. I was very disappointed to say the least and would've stopped at 5 miles if someone would have offered me a ride.<br /><br />Good newsno injuries. A lot of shoulder stiffness. Rested Sunday--including 6+ hrs of driving. Went out this AM and walked a slow mile then ran 4 min/walked 1 minute. Did that for 3 more milesand almost felt like myself.

    I have honnestly felt better at the end of 50+ mile runs/races than I did early on in the marathon. I am digesting my humble pie. For a guy who has run over 31 yrs and 65,000 miles it was a run I will never forget.

    My planmore MAF and go after my goal of a sub 3:58 in February at the Tallahassee marathon.<br /><br /><br />This post in no way is to knock MAF training. It has been great for me. Got me back to running 6 days a week and allowed me to run more miles(55-60)comfortably, than I have since 1984. That for a 64 yr old is saying something.

    Thanks again to Jesse, Jimmy/Willow and my coach Aharmerwho had nothing to do with my performance on Saturday. I remainLong Run Nick  even though this was just 3/4 of a marathon. Now I have run 15 and 3/4 marathons. And 10+ultras. Nick




    Nick,

    Sounds just like one of those real bad days that has nothing to do with your training and everything to do with your body just going "I don't think so, not today" right from the beginning. Maybe you were tired from the long drive to the marathon (the shoulder stiffness could have been caused by that). You were smart to DNF. I hope I have the courage to do the same if I find myself in the same spot someday.

    Just curious, what have your race times been lately? I want to check out your numbers.

    Keep going Nick!

    --Jimmy

    @@@@[/URL" target="_blank">
    MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

  • streeetch Rookie 27 posts since
    Sep 16, 2006

    quote:


    Originally posted by DavidD:


    ensure? Terrible idea (bad stuff). Read Maffetone's In Fitness and In Health, but Training and Eating for Endurance (he's coming out with a new version early in '08 that combines both books) are best if you're a serious athlete.


     



    Thanks.  I have Training.., will be ordering Eating for Endurance soon.  Will stick with Clif bars and Accelerade for now, no Ensure or Boost.

  • daijoubu Rookie 29 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    What's the problem with Ensure?  It seems to be fairly common among ultra and trail runners...  Too much refined carbs?



    ----



    Rob[/URL" target="_blank">

  • Long Run Nick Amateur 277 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    Hey Jimmy,
    Definitely was not my day.  My race times: 9/8 5K23:12. First "hard" running after 4 + months/close to 1,000 miles of MAFfor me around 132. Did a 1/2 marathon on 10/271:49:28. Went out EZ 8:35's picked it up after 6 mileslast 3 miles at 7:55, 7:45 and 7:33. Felt great. Ran a 10K on 11/10had run 6 miles MAF prior to the start. Ran a controlled 47:44. Didn't try to hammer it. Ran several cool down miles after the 10K. Felt great. Ran a 5K Turkey Trot (11/22) in a Tallahassee downpour in 24:20didn't have the hammer down. Tapered more than I ever have. Just never felt right marathon day once I started running. At mile 2, I was having to work to maintain a 9 m/m pace. Heart rate in low 170's normally that pace high 150's low 160's. My max HR is around 200. I use to hit 207 in my late 40's and early 50's. At 64+ I am greatful my heart is still beating. <br /><br />Rested Sunday6 hr drivebut felt like I hadn't run a marathonthen realized I hadn't!!  Mon I walked a slow mile then ran 4 min/walked 1 min for 3 more miles. Felt like Nick. Rested today. I plan on running the Tallahassee Marathon in February (2/3I think). Goal will be sub 4. Adam Harmer has been my coach and has a plan for the 8 weeks till my race.

    Jimmy I would like to hear your thoughts on pacing a marathon. I have read where you hold back then hammer. I would like to approach my race that way. If you want to keep it a secret you can e-mail me. (: Nick

    PS I am very greatful that I have been running for over 31 years and over 65,000 mostly injury freehealthy miles. As I mentioned, had someone offered me a ride at 5 miles I would have taken it. After all those miles and over 400 racesI have a pretty fair estimation of how things are going. I have run over 50 miles in races and not felt the way I felt on Saturday. Thanks for your and Jesse's concern.

  • jjwaverly_42 Pro 388 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    quote:


    Originally posted by Long Run Nick:

    Hey Jimmy,

    Definitely was not my day.  My race times: 9/8 5K23:12. First "hard" running after 4 + months/close to 1,000 miles of MAFfor me around 132. Did a 1/2 marathon on 10/271:49:28. Went out EZ 8:35's picked it up after 6 mileslast 3 miles at 7:55, 7:45 and 7:33. Felt great. Ran a 10K on 11/10had run 6 miles MAF prior to the start. Ran a controlled 47:44. Didn't try to hammer it. Ran several cool down miles after the 10K. Felt great. Ran a 5K Turkey Trot (11/22) in a Tallahassee downpour in 24:20didn't have the hammer down. Tapered more than I ever have. Just never felt right marathon day once I started running. At mile 2, I was having to work to maintain a 9 m/m pace. Heart rate in low 170's normally that pace high 150's low 160's. My max HR is around 200. I use to hit 207 in my late 40's and early 50's. At 64+ I am greatful my heart is still beating. <br /><br />Rested Sunday6 hr drivebut felt like I hadn't run a marathonthen realized I hadn't!!  Mon I walked a slow mile then ran 4 min/walked 1 min for 3 more miles. Felt like Nick. Rested today. I plan on running the Tallahassee Marathon in February (2/3I think). Goal will be sub 4. Adam Harmer has been my coach and has a plan for the 8 weeks till my race.

    Jimmy I would like to hear your thoughts on pacing a marathon. I have read where you hold back then hammer. I would like to approach my race that way. If you want to keep it a secret you can e-mail me. (: Nick

    PS I am very greatful that I have been running for over 31 years and over 65,000 mostly injury freehealthy miles. As I mentioned, had someone offered me a ride at 5 miles I would have taken it. After all those miles and over 400 racesI have a pretty fair estimation of how things are going. I have run over 50 miles in races and not felt the way I felt on Saturday. Thanks for your and Jesse's concern.




    Hi Nick,

    Glad to see you're recovering and in good spirits.
    With proper aerobic base, breaking 4 hours should not be a problem for you. I would venture to say you could break 3:50, based on your 5k time.

    The way I pace a marathon is I determine during training what my best possible pace is going to be. Then I'll start out a little slower than that, maybe 20 seconds slower, then over 3-4 miles gradually work up to the goal pace and try to maintain it for the rest of the race. I set a pace plan and know where I should be at for my goal time for every mile of the race (I carry a tiny sheet in my Raceready shorts with all the splits). I don't really "hammer" it, I try to maintain as even as a feel as possible. The last 3 miles usually requires concentration not to slow due to the usual fatigue, as I have discovered it's a mental game in the end, as I don't hit the wall anymore (knock on wood). If you're wearing a HRM you might see your HR get as high as 95% MHR near the end.

    I find my goal pace using lactate threshold runs, a particular heart rate zone for my marathon race pace tempos, any race times that I do within a few months of the marathon (the last two Philly Marathons, I did a half marathon two months out, and that provided some good info), and the McMillan calculator. My system is right on for me and usually come within a minute or two of goal pace, if not right on.

    Look at the time! I have to go run!

    Keep going , Nick. Good idea to one in February.

    --jimmy

    MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
    profile[/URL" target="_blank">

  • DavidD063 Rookie 360 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007

    quote:


    Originally posted by daijoubu:

    What's the problem with Ensure? It seems to be fairly common among ultra and trail runners... Too much refined carbs?


     




    The real question is: why would anyone want to drink it? Unless you don’t care about your health.

    It’s made from sugar, sugar and sugar, with a little highly processed protein, a bunch of synthetic vitamins and lots of dangerous easily-rancified oils. And, it can’t pass the pronounce test (most people can’t pronounce a lot of the ingredients).

    The primary need during an event is carbohydrate. Ensure has carbs that have to first be digested before they’re available for energy. Carb digestion is difficult during a run (so you get undigested carbs in your gut which leads to bloating and gas).

    For half the price you can drink some diluted fruit juice, which requires no digestion (the carbs are immediately available for energy and maintaining fat-burning).

    Sorry Jesse and Jimmy, I know you hate going off course in this thread. 

  • Long Run Nick Amateur 277 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    Thanks Jimmy. Good stuff. Oh, back in my hay dayearly to mid 80's I ran 5K's at 17:45-1830 regularly. 10K's 36:30-37:30 regularly. Tables projected 2:50 marathon. Best I didback in '85 was a 3:16. That was on relatively consistent 50 mile weeks with long runs 20+ milesnearly weekly yr round. Ran a 8:12 PR 50 miler back then on similar mileage. For me, the tables never got close to what I actually did. Or I never got close to the projections. I did look up my PR3:16 marathon and saw I had run 60 miles the week before. Who knew? So silly in my 40's.

    I always wanted to run longer than faster. I guess I should have stayed to middle distance running. Had a 2 mile PR of 10:22 in the early 80's with no real speed workjust consistent miles. This in my 40's, after running for almost 10 yrs, after smoking from my late teens till I was 33I think the course was a little short but was told it was certified.

    So, with over 65,000 miles you would think I could crank out a sub 4 hr marathon. I ran 4:07 in February--my first marathon in 21 yrs!! Feb '08 it will get done. Nick

  • Well since my foots healed up nicely and my heart rate is more "normal" since taking the beta blocker after I run I decided to run my last mile with some effort so I can gage what my heart rate might actually max at and give me some idea of possible goal paces for when I do race.  So I decided the last mile in my 4 mile run today i would test it so i dont stay above maf to long   I got 7'24" and max hr of 180.  Now I could have probably pushed it to 7" or 6"45" and gotten hr a bit higher also since I had some gas left in me.  I am totally happy with that time for now.  Now if I read Hadd right i could possibly expect around a 8'22" HM pace if I keep up the maf training which I totally plan on doing.  Now i have a baseline to compare future runs to and canplot hr zones for races seeing as i probably am real close to the 220-age max hr(i am 37).  The good news out of all of this is I am just wanting to break 2 hrs for the May 3rd marathon so all looks good so far   Now back to lettign the grannys and babys passing me.

    Happy maffing all,
    Mark

  • bdags061 Rookie 61 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    I'm having difficulty finding Maffetone's books.  I want to buy "Training For Endurance" and "Eating For Endurance."  It seems that the only option is used at inflated prices.  Anyone have a clue as to what is going on with this?

  • quote:


    Originally posted by bdags:

    I'm having difficulty finding Maffetone's books. I want to buy "Training For Endurance" and "Eating For Endurance." It seems that the only option is used at inflated prices. Anyone have a clue as to what is going on with this?


     




    I am in exactly the same boat as you. Apparently Maffetone is publishing a new edtion in early 2008 that combines the two books.  There is no reference to this on his website though.

  • jjwaverly_42 Pro 388 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    quote:


    Originally posted by bdags:

    I'm having difficulty finding Maffetone's books. I want to buy "Training For Endurance" and "Eating For Endurance." It seems that the only option is used at inflated prices. Anyone have a clue as to what is going on with this?


     



    Almost all the info in Training For Endurance is in the newer Maffetone Method book. I just went through ita bit more for beginners and walkers in itstill the same stuff:


    click here[/URL" target="_blank">

    Training For Endurance 2nd edition is supposedly being reprinted.
    The website[/URL" target="_blank"> where I bought my copy for 10 bucks or so says it is on back order while being reprinted.

    The Maffetone Method should get you by for now.

    --Jimmy

    MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

    profile[/URL" target="_blank">

  • bdags061 Rookie 61 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
  • aharmer Rookie 452 posts since
    May 25, 2005

    David,

    My experience with Ensure is similar to what you describe. Once I realized that I was drinking what appeared on the label to be some sort of exotic poison, I stopped. It took about a month to get the smell of chocolate Ensure out of my water bottles...that can't be good.

    With regard to fruit juices...are some fruits better than others, or is it the glucose that is the key?  When I say better I'm referring to which would be most readily and easily absorbed during a race.  Thanks!

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