quote:<HR>Originally posted by kcarmike:
(Boston is a great example, also a race I have issues with allowing non-BQers run, but that's another story) ...Kris <HR>

Krish - IxNay on the Non-BQersNay

(the elite snobbery police are everywhere

Ray

I didn't wear em for the MCM, but I wish I could have. I use a single headphone or when using stereo, keep the volume low and can hear what's going on around me.

The only instance of a problem I saw was a runner who couldn't hear everyone yelling at him and everyone else to move L so a wheelchair racer coming down a hill could pass. He didn't, and the wheel chair had to dump all his speed. I yelled from across the road "HEY HEADPHONES...MOVE IT" He glanced and realized he was being an a$$ and moved out of the way. Someone next to me then commented "So that's why they have that rule."

I saw lots of ppl wearing them, and as usual I didn't see any more problems caused by runners w headphones than without. Actually most of the ppl that cut me off weren't wearing them.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by fuzz:
So it's impossible to enforce the rule.

Unless the other major marathons agree to enforce it.

Then it's possible.<HR>

Of course, it's possible.

They wouldn't have to be enforced completely on all rule violators in a race. Human nature and the pocketbook would fix it in short order.

Just have an extra portion of the rule waiver require an agreement that the runner acknowledges that they agree to have their credit card charged a minimum extra fee of say $300 if they are observed and photographed violating the rule.

and in my never to be easy on the "It's all about ME" folks, I would have it say that for every mile beyond mile 2 that they are observed with the headphones that the extra fee goes up $50. It's just a new application of the tried and true business process of demurage. (If you don't return the expensive container in which a product is shipped, you pay a charge which doubles every day, week, whatever) Works like a charm.

Remember, the goal is to get the **** things off the roads in races, not to punish, but if it takes rather harsh punishment then that's the choice runners will have made.

Since the waiver is an inducement by the runner to get the race to allow them to run, the race would be relying on that statement, so if a runner was to cancel their credit card to avoid the charge, that just might be getting into a form fraud.
Deliberate inducement.
Reliance on the inducement by the race.
damages in the form of money lost because the race cannot collect from the credit card.

I'm sure the lawyers could clear up the language to fix whatever remains in completing the definition of fraud.

Again, remember the goal here is to stop the use of headphones, not placate the IAAM crowd.

It wouldn't take too many runners getting hammered with this for the subject to just go away.

http://This message has been edited by NHSenior (edited Nov-01-2007).

I don't mean to hijack, so I apologize if I do...

Is this a problem primarily with American racers? The reason I ask is that I was in Japan this summer and was blown away with the respect people give to rules. They sort their trash (including dumping ice out of McDonalds cups so the cups can be recycled), drive respectfully, etc because that's the rule, not because someone is policing it. After a few weeks over there, it was a real shock to get back to the States where it's every man for himself.

I love my headphones, but if the race says no 'phones, then I leave them at home. Why do people need to cheat the system?

End of rant.



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-Todd
Check Me Out[/URL" target="_blank">
There's plenty of time for rest when you're dead.

As someone with a hugely vested interest in people wearing headphones when they run, I'm weighing in with the observation that if the rules state "no headphones," then your responsibility is to abide by the rules or choose not to enter the race. While I totally agree that insurance liability has made a mockery of personal choice in this country, a person's individual interest does not come ahead of public safety.

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DJ Steve Boyett
"Podrunner" -- FREE workout Music Mixes
Download from iTunes or directly from http://www.djsteveboy.com/podrunner.html[/URL" target="_blank">

quote:<HR>Originally posted by ToddDubya:
I don't mean to hijack, so I apologize if I do...

Is this a problem primarily with American racers? The reason I ask is that I was in Japan this summer and was blown away with the respect people give to rules. <snip>

I love my headphones, but if the race says no 'phones, then I leave them at home. Why do people need to cheat the system?

End of rant.

<HR>

Not all rules are created equal, in my opinion. This idea is reflected in the fact that people speed all the time (fine, in my opinion, apart from the tailgating and other unsafe behaviors that sometimes go along with it), litter (I can't stand it), and wear headphones at races (I love them). For that matter, some people in repressive countries like to read censored books or join unauthorized political parties. Is that wrong, too, because it's against the rules? What about the Boston Tea Party or civil rights protests?

I'd be more convinced by the safety argument against headphones if someone could actually provide evidence that it's unsafe. Is there any? Like a previous poster mentioned, he got cut off by more people without headphones than people with them. If insurance rates are the issue, raise your **** race fee $2. In fact, I would agree to pay $2 more to race with headphones. The fine proposal mentioned just makes me laugh/grimace.

As far as Japan, yeah, they have a more rule-based society. Along with that comes arguably a stifling of creativity and a slavish adherence to rules regardless of whether they make sense. Much as American society drives me nuts sometimes, I definitely prefer it to Japan.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by martinjames:
Compare your second and third paragraph. They are inconsistent. In fact, I saw a lot of idiots at MCM wearing headphones and blocking the wheelchair racers. At one point, I was ready to run over and shove those dorks to the ground on general principles. Some of the hills at MCM are serious hills and the wheelchairs could ROLL if only dork-who-loves-Billy-Joel-on-raceday would get out of the way. Instead, because of the need for Piano Man at mile 5, the wheelchairs had to fight like **** to get up the hill and then brake like **** to go down. I might have been the one who said "That's why they have the rule."

I half-hoped that the chairs would mow 'em down, but that wouldn't have been fair to the chairs. Really. It's selfish. Sooner or later there will be a serious incident that will make the paper and then, MAYBE, there will be enforcement. Either that or one of you cranky racers will get litigious and file a claim against the Marathon organizers for failure to provide the promised race environment. http://Incidentally, those people running NYC w/headphones are the weasels who got into the lottery instead of me.

In the interest of full disclosure: I wear an Ipod 90% of the time on training runs and wore it in races until I forgot it one day and realized that (a) I didn't need it and (b) I was faster without it. If they enforced the rule, people would realize it's not so bad.

<HR>

I saw this problem at MCM (i-pod wearers versus wheelchairs). One woman almost sat on the wheelchair guy's lap on a downhill. I saw how ridiculous it was, but I also saw that the woman would not finish the MCM without it masking the pain. Oh well.