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Click to view JimR022's profile Legend 1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002
47. Nov 9, 2007 2:53 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard99:
I invite you, as I have invited pretty much everyone else who has made the same claim, to get a copy of any of the cited original research studies, analyze them, and then write & post your own article as to what they mean. That way you can support your claim of "complete nonsense" and the running community as a whole will benefit.
<HR>


I did that Richard. Here's what I came up with.

Here's the two graphs you presented:





and then I replotted the data on the same graph, and here's what came out:



So those nice dramatic 'curves' you were showing in your second graph aren't very dramatic at all.
Click to view JimR022's profile Legend 1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002
49. Nov 9, 2007 3:17 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard99:
Jim,

I disagree. What you've done is post your criticisms of that particular study but failed to support your criticisms with any credible data,
<HR>


I used the data you presented on your site. Is the data from your site not credible?
Click to view JimR022's profile Legend 1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002
51. Nov 9, 2007 4:12 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard99:
it appears you massaged the data to try and get it to fit what you wanted it to say<HR>


Nope. No changes to the data, no changes to the values for the plot lines. They are the same.

Yellow, 55 minutes to 1hr6minutes, 0-5% variation
Pink, 1hr6minutes to 1hr14minutes, 0-2% variation
Blue, 1hr14minutes to 1hr25minutes, 0-2% variation

as per your data.
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
53. Nov 9, 2007 5:35 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard99:
...exercise science can contribute to and improve training methods (a point you and I don't seem to agree on).
<HR>


I don't dismiss "science" at all. I'd welcome them sitting in the backseat, reading the map to me. I do however have an objection with them sitting next to me, grabbing hold of the wheel and trying to stear my car into the gutter.

I do agree that science CAN improve a lot for the sport. I do however have an objection changing the principles of training every time some Reader's Digest type article comes out stating "new and improved training method" has just been invented; because there are A LOT of them out there.
Click to view TedAndresen's profile Legend 233 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
54. Nov 9, 2007 5:36 PM in response to: Richard99


This is a misleading graph. You should use a suppressed vertical axis so you can observe the marginal increase in performance as a function of increased weekly distance.

I suggest that you re-scale the vertical axis so it spans from 60 min to 90 min.

Most performance changes in running are less than 20%. You would get a better evaluation of the data if you use a percent improvement scale or a suppressed axis.

Ted
Click to view ATLrunner's profile Pro 159 posts since
Sep 4, 2007
55. Nov 9, 2007 5:39 PM in response to: Richard99
I'll explain why I call your article complete nonsense. It's not the study that's the problem. The data itself is likely fine. The problem is that it doesn't support the conclusion you're trying to draw. First we'll deal with Fig 1. Here is your conclusion:

"Based on the data found in figure 1, we reach the conclusion that weekly mileage does have an influence on performance in that increases in weekly mileage can result in improved performance. However, the influence of weekly mileage is not strong, predicting just 21% of finishing time. We can also conclude, based on the leveling of the relationship curve, that continually increasing weekly mileage does not cause continual improvements in race finishing time. There appears to be an upper limit to improvements due to increases in weekly mileage. Finally, this data shows that, on average, the relationship between increasing weekly mileage and race performance levels off at about 50 mpw. This leveling occurs at a significantly lower weekly mileage than that recommended by those who use the training mileage of elite athletes as their guide."

1. You fail to point out that of all the variables studied, weekly mileage was best predictor of finishing time.
2. The data only goes up to 100 Km (62 miles) per week. Its slope is negative the entire way, which should lead you to conclude that mileage does continually better performance. 62 mpw is also nowhere near the upper bound for weekly mileage that athletes typically run. A very significant demographic has been inexplicably excluded from the study.
3. For some reason, you've used a scale that begins at zero even though the lower bound for the race is 49:19. Your inappropriate choice of scale grossly exagerates the flatness of the curve. You suggest that it levels off, but it doesn't, you've only made it look that way by choosing a wide scale.
4. You make the mistake of confusing corellation and causation.
5. This is the main one here. You've exluded what appears to be quite a bit of data. The lower and upper bounds for the race are 49:19 and 1:57:18, but the graph ends at about 58:00 and 1:15. What about the rest???? The total range of finishing times is over 1 hour, but the range you've used in the graph appears to be <20 min. Without seeing the data set, it's safe to say you've excluded a huge amount of data points. Why??

Fig 2 is even worse. Once again, your conclusions:

"This data quite compellingly shows that increasing mileage does not benefit all runners equally. By correlating weekly mileage and race performance for 3 distinct groups of runners rather than simply taking the average of all 4000+ runners it becomes clear that the relationship between weekly mileage and performance is not the same for all runners. The correlations lead us to conclude that some runners benefit more from increasing weekly mileage than do others. We also see that the benefit of increasing mileage levels off much sooner for some runners than others and at a much lower weekly mileage than is suggested by many as the optimal weekly run mileage. For some runners increasing mileage beyond a certain point not only doesn?t produce additional improvements but actually causes a decline in performance."

1. Once again, you've confused corellation and causation.
2. You've ignored huge amounts of data... again. The study includes athletes that run up to 100 Km per week, yet for purposes of this chart, you've truncated the data at 60 Km per week. Why?
3. What does this mean? Are there runners in each of the three groups who train less than 10 Km per week, which is essentially no running? It is virtually inconceivable that an individual who does not train could finish a 10 mile run in <1:06, and if such a person does exist, they would be an outlier, and should not be usable in your study. Therefore, I will conclude that when you say % change in finishing time, you mean from the average finishing time of non-runners. Interestingly, all regression lines intersect the axis at this point. How is that possible?? The slowest group would presumably intersect the axis near this point, since virtually all of the non-runners would be in this group. For the two faster groups, it would be impossible for them to intersect here. By virtue of being in the faster group, every runner is faster, and so every point would have a non-zero percent difference. You see where I'm going with this don't you? The chart is simply impossible. It's a complete fabrication.

Bottom line is, your first chart may be an accurate representation of part of the data set (although I doubt it), but you've presented it in a way that is extremely misleading, and it's only part of the set. Likely the portion that came closest to supporting the conclusions you wanted to draw. The second chart is a flat out lie. I believe you either hand-picked data points that would produce curves in the shape you wanted, or you simply drew it free-hand.
Click to view JimR022's profile Legend 1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002
56. Dec 26, 2007 7:22 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by TedAndresen:


This is a misleading graph. You should use a suppressed vertical axis so you can observe the marginal increase in performance as a function of increased weekly distance.

I suggest that you re-scale the vertical axis so it spans from 60 min to 90 min.

Most performance changes in running are less than 20%. You would get a better evaluation of the data if you use a percent improvement scale or a suppressed axis.

Ted

<HR>


The purpose is to show how the two graphs Richard presented relate to each other. I deliberately kept the Y axis range to retain the perspective and present within matching scale. Graph 1:



and superimpose graph 2:



with proper scale adjustments.

Those two graphs, by the way, are from Richard's site, viewable here[/URL" target="_blank">. The superimposed one



is mine.

You're a math guy, feel free to check the scale adjustments I had made for errors. If you feel there are any, let me know.


http://This message has been edited by JimR (edited Nov-10-2007).
Click to view bigapplepie's profile We're Not Worthy 2,636 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
58. Nov 9, 2007 6:36 PM in response to: Richard99
I don't see much difference between Fitzgerald's training plan and Daniels' or Pfitzinger's.