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Click to view Jim24315's profile Legend 1,988 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
150. Dec 26, 2007 7:22 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by fredurie:
JP, how do you know that any workout is the right workout?

There are many different types of training systems and
through experimentation you discover what your body will
do.

There is no "one way"

The most productive university program in Canada is
interval based, and the coach has been coach of the year
over 32 times.

http://This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Nov-14-2007).
<HR>


Fred,

Who's saying that there's only one way? That's not how I'm interpretting it. And why can't an interval based program be done at paces based on current conditon rather than goal?

I'm not even sure that you believe that you can't but it seems that I've noticed you say things like, "if your goal is to run a mile in 5 minutes, then start doing intervals at 5-minute pace". Am I misinterpreting? I know that you have a lot of variety in your training that includes a wide range of paces.
Click to view OldXCguy's profile Pro 186 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
151. Dec 26, 2007 7:22 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jim24315:
I have become a huge believer in basing training paces on current condition rather than goal. It hasn't always been this way either, and in a way it is counter intuitive. But as you said, it really is putting the cart before the horse to say that you want to run a certain time and then start training at paces that say you are already there. I've found that it works much better to come from the other direction.<HR>


I too have done most of my recent training based on current race paces, mostly because I have faith in Tinman's approach, and because it seems to be working well for me. I believe the theory is that training at faster than current pace is too demanding and ultimately unproductive. On the other hand, part of me feels there is some merit to the argument that one needs to do at least some training at goal pace, based on the priniciple of specificity. If one never trains at goal pace, how is one going to find it in a race? So far I have dealt with this paradox by doing most of my training at current pace, with some goal pace work mixed in. Anyone care to comment?

Oh, one more thing. I understand what JPgarland means about not wanting to go entirely by feel. I have also been training for a long time (almost 30 years), and while I could probably train entirely by feel, I enjoy the feedback of hard data. I'm sure some people are content to finish a workout and think, "Gee, I ran well today." I certainly enjoy that feeling, but I also like to have objective data like time and distance to confirm that my training is on course and I am continuing to improve.

This thread has certainly evolved from the tedious point/counterpoint with which it started, into an interesting, productive discussion. Thank you ladies and gentleman.



http://This message has been edited by OldXCguy (edited Nov-14-2007).
Click to view tigger077's profile Legend 691 posts since
Nov 19, 1999
152. Dec 26, 2007 7:22 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by fredurie:

The most productive university program in Canada is
interval based, and the coach has been coach of the year
over 32 times.

http://This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Nov-14-2007).
<HR>



You may be referring to UW, but currently the most productive program in Canada is at Guelph. They won double gold (men and women) for the second straight year at the university cross country championships in Victoria last weekend. It is also the third straight gold for the women's team. It's composed mostly of rookies who will win gold for another three years if they stay together. Intervals are one of their big workouts, but that's not all they do.
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
153. Dec 26, 2007 7:22 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by OldXCguy:
I too have done most of my recent training based on current race paces, mostly because I have faith in Tinman's approach, and because it seems to be working well for me. I believe the theory is that training at faster than current pace is too demanding and ultimately unproductive. On the other hand, part of me feels there is some merit to the argument that one needs to do at least some training at goal pace, based on the priniciple of specificity. If one never trains at goal pace, how is one going to find it in a race? So far I have dealt with this paradox by doing most of my training at current pace, with some goal pace work mixed in. Anyone care to comment?

Oh, one more thing. I understand what JPgarland means about not wanting to go entirely by feel. I have also been training for a long time (almost 30 years), and while I could probably train entirely by feel, I enjoy the feedback of hard data. I'm sure some people are content to finish a workout and think, "Gee, I ran well today." I certainly enjoy that feeling, but I also like to have objective data like time and distance to confirm that my training is on course and I am continuing to improve.

This thread has certainly evolved from the tedious point/counterpoint with which it started, into an interesting, productive discussion. Thank you ladies and gentleman.

http://This message has been edited by OldXCguy (edited Nov-14-2007).
<HR>


Of course, I keep very detailed record of what we are doing--sometimes I'd time my runner without telling her exactly. Sometimes I lie to her depending on how she's handling the workout. I believe THE most important thing for training is that they come out feeling good. Of course, it may not always happen. But I'd ALWAYS try to create positive than negative. If my athlete can only handle 64 seconds 400m TT before competition, I might even lie to her and say she did it in 62. As a coach, you do the worrying.

I'll tell you this story (I might have posted this already and I'm not trying to show off but I love how things went); Reiko Tosa, who won the bronze medal in the women's marathon at Osaka, fell hard 5 weeks before the race and hurt her knee badly. It was in the newspaper (website) in Japan. I sent her coach an e-mail right away, just matter-of-factly, and said, "Well, the same thing happened to Lopes in 84 or Abebe in 64. They were both well-rested..." Not even an hour after she won the bronze, I got an e-mail from him. He told me that, when she got down to the 5th place at 35k, she kept telling herself, "I'm better rested, I'm bette-rested..." It's a small thing in your head; sometimes if the negative thought is creeping into your head, the race might have been over. If people around her acted worried, so would she. She got back to the third place at 40k and got the spot for the Olympic team. When I went to Japan 3 weeks ago and got together with her coach, she gave me the autographed running magazine (with her in the front cover) that read "I got the ticket to Beijing--thank you for your help." It meant a lot to me.
Click to view littlewaywelt's profile Pro 181 posts since
Apr 1, 2005
154. Dec 26, 2007 7:22 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard99:

I termed this mainstream for the simple reason that it is now published in book form (the method that I believe to be the primary source of information to the running community as a whole) and widely available to the running community.

<HR>

That is absolutely ridiculous logic. Mainstream denotes acceptance or use.
By your logic the mere fact that there are 911 conspiracy books indicates that the conspiracies espoused are mainstream.

100% pure nonsense.


n.
The prevailing current of thought, influence, or activity: ?You need not accept the nominee's ideology, only be able to locate it in the American mainstream? (Charles Krauthammer).

adj.
Representing the prevalent attitudes, values, and practices of a society or group: mainstream morality.

http://This message has been edited by littlewaywelt (edited Nov-14-2007).
Click to view bigapplepie's profile We're Not Worthy 2,636 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
155. Nov 14, 2007 4:27 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard99:

I termed this mainstream for the simple reason that it is now published in book form (the method that I believe to be the primary source of information to the running community as a whole) and widely available to the running community.

<HR>

quote:<HR>Originally posted by littlewaywelt:
That is absolutely ridiculous logic. Mainstream denotes acceptance or use.
By your logic the mere fact that there are 911 conspiracy books indicates that the conspiracies espoused are mainstream.

100% pure nonsense.


n.
The prevailing current of thought, influence, or activity: ?You need not accept the nominee's ideology, only be able to locate it in the American mainstream? (Charles Krauthammer).

adj.
Representing the prevalent attitudes, values, and practices of a society or group: mainstream morality.

<HR>

Didn't these thing go mainstream in Fitzgerald's previous 5 books?
Click to view IceStorm213's profile Legend 354 posts since
Nov 1, 2005
156. Nov 14, 2007 5:09 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nobby:
Of course, I keep very detailed record of what we are doing--sometimes I'd time my runner without telling her exactly. Sometimes I lie to her depending on how she's handling the workout. I believe THE most important thing for training is that they come out feeling good. Of course, it may not always happen. But I'd ALWAYS try to create positive than negative. If my athlete can only handle 64 seconds 400m TT before competition, I might even lie to her and say she did it in 62. As a coach, you do the worrying.

I'll tell you this story (I might have posted this already and I'm not trying to show off but I love how things went); Reiko Tosa, who won the bronze medal in the women's marathon at Osaka, fell hard 5 weeks before the race and hurt her knee badly. It was in the newspaper (website) in Japan. I sent her coach an e-mail right away, just matter-of-factly, and said, "Well, the same thing happened to Lopes in 84 or Abebe in 64. They were both well-rested..." Not even an hour after she won the bronze, I got an e-mail from him. He told me that, when she got down to the 5th place at 35k, she kept telling herself, "I'm better rested, I'm bette-rested..." It's a small thing in your head; sometimes if the negative thought is creeping into your head, the race might have been over. If people around her acted worried, so would she. She got back to the third place at 40k and got the spot for the Olympic team. When I went to Japan 3 weeks ago and got together with her coach, she gave me the autographed running magazine (with her in the front cover) that read "I got the ticket to Beijing--thank you for your help." It meant a lot to me.
<HR>


What? You mean you actually help successful runners? Wouldn't you prefer a website devoted to tomfoolery and the occasional masochistic foray into bulletin board **** with a cockamamie scientific theory based on jargon, smoke, and mirrors?
Click to view Kim Stevenson's profile Expert 59 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
157. Nov 14, 2007 5:46 PM in response to: Richard99
Along the lines of what Nobby is saying.
I keep a record of what my athletes do and I do time 'bits and 'pieces'. So I know they are on track.
A little story from my past. I may have told it before.
Many years ago when I ran with Bill Baillie I turned up one night at our weekly club night. A 5k was scheduled. Bill said we are going to run it as a time trial. I said 'How fast?" he said that he felt I (along with some others) was in 16 minute shape (if I raced). I had run most lunch hours for the previous 9 months with him so he had a good handle on where he thought I should be.
We ran it as evenly as we could with each of us running a lap each at the front (Cycle pursuit style). The last lap was a 'free for all' . Bill Won !!.
From memory I ran 16-40 -50.
It was a classic Lydiard 1/2 effort time trial.
Bill did not tell ahead of time (ie day before) what we were going to do. If he had I would have stressed about it because I had never run one.

When I do these types of workouts now I take a similar approach.For my newer athletes, at the start they know we are going to run at an effort but I don't say until we are warming up what Ithe distance or what I feel the 'effort' will be. Once they are into the routine they know what they have to do each time.

Does that make sense


------------------
Run easy, Run long
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
158. Nov 14, 2007 8:24 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by martinjames:
What? You mean you actually help successful runners? Wouldn't you prefer a website devoted to tomfoolery and the occasional masochistic foray into bulletin board **** with a cockamamie scientific theory based on jargon, smoke, and mirrors? <HR>


In fact, I much prefer dealing with a real human instead of computer screen. I have much better "kick" out of dealing with emotions and "surprises" with live persons than schedules and calculations. But that's just me...

Of course, in the case of Tosa, if you want to check it out in person, you can also contact her or her coach for a proof...if you can understand Japanese! ;o)
Click to view fredurie's profile Legend 1,979 posts since
Aug 21, 2002
159. Nov 15, 2007 10:30 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:

You may be referring to UW, but currently the most productive program in Canada is at Guelph. They won double gold (men and women) for the second straight year at the university cross country championships in Victoria last weekend. It is also the third straight gold for the women's team. It's composed mostly of rookies who will win gold for another three years if they stay together. Intervals are one of their big workouts, but that's not all they do.

<HR>


The most productive program in Canada is in Windsor. Fairall is still
coaching the Canadian 1500 champ, Mauricio was 4th at the national
x-country champs last year, and Deeps is in the best shape of anyone in Windsor.

Fairall has been coach of the year 33 times, what about the Guelph coach?
Click to view tigger077's profile Legend 691 posts since
Nov 19, 1999
160. Nov 15, 2007 12:17 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by fredurie:
The most productive program in Canada is in Windsor. Fairall is still
coaching the Canadian 1500 champ, Mauricio was 4th at the national
x-country champs last year, and Deeps is in the best shape of anyone in Windsor.

Fairall has been coach of the year 33 times, what about the Guelph coach?

<HR>



Fairall has been XC coach of the year 4 times for men at the CIS championships. He has been coach of the year only once for women. That makes 5 times if you add them up.

On the other hand, and to answer your question, the Guelph coach has been XC coach of the year 6 times for men and 4 times for women over the same period of time. That includes coach of the year for both men and women two years in a row, which has never been done before. That makes 10 times if you add them up.

There is no doubt the Windsor program is a good one. They were fourth at CIS this year for women and second for men. Guelph was first in both, as they were last year too. Interestingly, no Windsor women made 1st team and only one male made it. Four Guelph women crossed the finish before the first Windsor woman. Men were more competitive with both teams having 3 of the top 10 finishes.

The best 10k guy (current) in Canada comes out of the Guelph program and still trains there. The best female university XC runner is at Guelph. I predict she will eat up the competition at 1500 in track next spring. Perhaps 3000 as well if she runs both. She is current Canadian junior champ in both I think.

http://cisport.ca/e/championships/cross_country/2006/award_winners.cfm[/URL" target="_blank">


http://www.sportingcanada.com/xc/results/2007-CISChampionships-Men.html[/URL" target="_blank">

http://www.sportingcanada.com/xc/results/2007-CISChampionships-Women.html[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view Gumbee's profile Pro 88 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
161. Nov 15, 2007 2:34 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by bigapplepie:
Running past the point of fatigue in order to fulfill some arbitrary training goal is the sort of thing that leads to injury.<HR>


I appreciate and thank you for this post. I think it is the nicest way anyone has ever written "listen to what your body is telling you, dumbass" that I have ever read.

Of course, I must hate you now 'cause I will probably no longer limp through that final "just one more".
Click to view fredurie's profile Legend 1,979 posts since
Aug 21, 2002
162. Dec 26, 2007 7:22 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:

Fairall has been XC coach of the year 4 times for men at the CIS championships. He has been coach of the year only once for women. That makes 5 times if you add them up.

On the other hand, and to answer your question, the Guelph coach has been XC coach of the year 6 times for men and 4 times for women over the same period of time. That includes coach of the year for both men and women two years in a row, which has never been done before. That makes 10 times if you add them up.

There is no doubt the Windsor program is a good one. They were fourth at CIS this year for women and second for men. Guelph was first in both, as they were last year too. Interestingly, no Windsor women made 1st team and only one male made it. Four Guelph women crossed the finish before the first Windsor woman. Men were more competitive with both teams having 3 of the top 10 finishes.

The best 10k guy (current) in Canada comes out of the Guelph program and still trains there. The best female university XC runner is at Guelph. I predict she will eat up the competition at 1500 in track next spring. Perhaps 3000 as well if she runs both. She is current Canadian junior champ in both I think.

http://cisport.ca/e/championships/cross_country/2006/award_winners.cfm[/URL" target="_blank">


http://www.sportingcanada.com/xc/results/2007-CISChampionships-Men.html[/URL" target="_blank">

http://www.sportingcanada.com/xc/results/2007-CISChampionships-Women.html[/URL" target="_blank">

<HR>


"Dennis Fairall is the Head Coach of the Windsor Lancers Track and Field and Cross Country programs. The native of Tillsonburg, Ontario is one of the most decorated coaches in Canadian University history, having been honoured 33 times as the CIS or OUA Coach of the Year in Track and Field and Cross Country.

In his 16 plus seasons with the Lancers, Fairall?s teams have captured an amazing 15 Canadian University Cross Country and Track and Field Championships (9 track and field, 6 cross country), in addition to the 23 Ontario University championships (18 track and field, 5 cross country). His teams have also won 9 of the past 10 provincial championships in both men?s and women?s track and field.
"

33 times coach of the year




http://This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Nov-16-2007).
Click to view tigger077's profile Legend 691 posts since
Nov 19, 1999
163. Dec 26, 2007 7:22 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by fredurie:
"Dennis Fairall is the Head Coach of the Windsor Lancers Track and Field and Cross Country programs. The native of Tillsonburg, Ontario is one of the most decorated coaches in Canadian University history, having been honoured 33 times as the CIS or OUA Coach of the Year in Track and Field and Cross Country.

In his 16 plus seasons with the Lancers, Fairall?s teams have captured an amazing 15 Canadian University Cross Country and Track and Field Championships (9 track and field, 6 cross country), in addition to the 23 Ontario University championships (18 track and field, 5 cross country). His teams have also won 9 of the past 10 provincial championships in both men?s and women?s track and field.
"

33 times coach of the year


http://This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Nov-16-2007).
<HR>


That's a good quote but it's right off the Lancers' website so perhaps a bit biased? As I have already said, Windsor has a great program....just not the best in Canada right now. If nothing else you have to admit Guelph has the best XC teams in the country and the best XC program.

33 Coach of the year awards in 18 years? Sounds like a little double counting don't you think? Or are they going back to little league?
Click to view runfastcoach's profile Pro 122 posts since
Jan 25, 2006
164. Nov 16, 2007 3:07 PM in response to: Richard99
I think the number one problem runners have is running too fast, too often. It is their dream of running faster in races or win prizes that motivate them to push faster than their bodies can handle. It is a good coach who recognizes that common problem and takes measures to prevent overtraining.

One measure taken is setting reasonable to training volumes for runners. And, the volumes are personalized. Joe may run well on 1 hour runs and Jack can alternate 1 and 1.5 hour runs yet still show no signs of overtraining.

Another measure taken is to limit the frequency of races. Many runners get greedy and want to race every weekend. Some runners should race once every 2 or 3 weeks in order to avoid dipping into their well of reserves! Others may be able to race every weekend, but they need to be held back from doing hard workouts between the frequent races.

Finally, a measure I use, along with the others, is to personalize the pace a runner uses in training. I do this to give a runner a reasonable idea of what they should be doing. I do realate an EFFORT to go along with a pace, and this is a key to the successful use of paces.

For example, I may tell Fred, an 18:00 5k runner, that his distance pace is 7:26 per mile or slower and that anything faster that is a hard workout pace. I may tell Laura, a 16:40 5k runner, that her distance is 6:55 or slower and that anything faster than that is a hard workout pace. Both runners now have an idea what is reasonable. They are more likely to avoid running too fast on days between their harder workouts if they know what is realistic.

I do provide flexibility within the organization of training so that runners can adjust to how they are feeling. This is another key. If Joe feels very tired, he can as slowly as he wants. If his harder workout is set for today and he is tired, I'll cancel the workout or tell him ahead of time that he can cancel it. I do ask that it be cancelled for physical rather than mental reasons. And, if it is a mental thing, such as "I have anxiety about the training paces written." then I turn it into a fartlek workout where the athlete runs for time segments instead of by pace. I'll say, "Run 8 x 2 minutes at 5k effort, jog 2 minute recovceries, during a 60 minute run. Run anywhere the appeals to you: park, trail, et cetra."

To summarize, the problems runners have typically relate to running too fast, too often, and some ways to overcome the problem are as follows:

1) set reasonable training schedules, ones that do not include workouts which are too fast, too long, or too frequent and avoid racing more often than your body can handle;

2) set reasonable training and racing paces and durations to run;

3) provide flexibility to adjust the training if fatigue or injury or illness or motivation are taking hold (giving mature athletes the freedom to make changes that are reasonable and realistic);

4) run in mentally appealing places, for they tend to ensure enjoyment of the sport; which provides satisfaction and peace of mind.

Tinman