How many Gels for a HM

Support | Event Directors & Organizers

Search Cool Running Community

Browse Cool Running

CoolRunning.com > Cool Running Community > Basic Training >

1 2 3 4 5 Previous Next Go to original post

seeericarun016

10 posts since
Mar 17, 2006

45. Dec 26, 2007 7:30 AM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by willamona:
You were stating that we use the glycogen in the liver first. Is that what these sources say? Because if so, they need to read Pfitz, Daniels and some, but not all of Noakes.

And I was no where near nasty. That is in your head.

<HR>

I said that there are three main sources of fueling your brain: dietary, liver (and kidney) glycogen and ketone bodies from fat.

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, but I was not trying to say that you burn the liver glycogen first, just that it was your primary concern (and not the glycogen in your muscles), because once that is burned, that is when you will feel like butt.

http://This message has been edited by seeericarun (edited Nov-11-2007).

willamona

384 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

46. Nov 11, 2007 5:42 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

If you ever meet up with maryt here, well, you two might just get along.....

------------------
***********
My myspace[/URL" target="_blank">
No Complaining[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ [/URL" target="_blank"> Because many have asked...
You have poopie pants.

slowgino

88 posts since
Jan 13, 2007

47. Nov 11, 2007 6:57 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by mmpz:
I'm curious to know the finishing times of everyone who's said no gels are needed. <HR>

Must be under 1:30 (PR marathon 2:57). I took the sports drink they had in the marathon, though.

No gels are needed (unless you train with them and have become dependent on them as a result... then one would ask: why do you train like that, anyway?)

fuzz039

144 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

48. Nov 11, 2007 7:49 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by mmpz:
I'm curious to know the finishing times of everyone who's said no gels are needed.<HR>

1:46. I've tried gels in half marathons as an experiment and they didn't make any difference that I could discern.

VictorN

406 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

49. Nov 11, 2007 8:55 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by mmpz:
I'm curious to know the finishing times of everyone who's said no gels are needed. <HR>

1:26 a few years back w/ gel at mile 5-6
1:28 before that and again this year w/o gel.

I'm not saying it was the gel, however, that got me those two extra minutes. I was in better shape this year when I ran the 1:28 than when I ran the 1:26, but strategically, I ran a poor race this year.

Still, I'll try a gel at mail 5-6 to see what happens.

I think you have to experiment and see what works for you. Everybody is different.

Victor

------------------
www.competitiverunner.com[/URL" target="_blank">

biketm

454 posts since
Jul 9, 2007

50. Nov 12, 2007 7:15 AM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by tdelafe:
I think you're getting bad advice. All these chest-pounders ("I didn't even need WATER in my last HM! Manly man here!) are doing themselves a disservice by not fueling up or hydrating during a run. Unless you are a Kenyan or Paula Radcliffe-type runner and have a very well-built body for running that requires little or no effort to run long distances, I would say that giving yourself an energy boost could only be a plus. All the running literature says the same. Based on my own PERSONAL experience, as a very, very amateur runner but someone who has been running steadily but surely like the proverbial tortoise for the last 9 years or so, my performance really improved when I started eating gels during a run. First of all though, DO NOT trying a PowerGel or Gu for the first time during a long-distance race like a HM ... duh. Experiment with a few and see what you can handle. My personal formula is one-half of one PowerGel (Double Latte flavor) for every 30 minutes of running if I'm running 6 miles or more. I wear my fuel belt for water and down up to 6 oz. for every half-gel that I eat. I don't eat gels before or after the run or if I'm very close to finishing a run. I find they give me a nice little kick and keep me from feeling fatigued when I am running. I stress that you experiment with yourself because I tried Gu once and got the WORST side stiches/cramps in the middle of an 8-mile run and got stuck hobbling along on a dusty road in the middle of a backcountry farmland in the middle of nowhere. LOL. Not fun.
So IMHO, there's no shame in using gels and in fact it will probably improve your performance. Don't knock til you try it.

<HR>

I said I didn't need water during my 1/2 M's, and stand behind that because my typical times are around 1:35 to 1:40. During my training runs, I never stopped or brought water with me unless I was running for over 2 hours, then it's usually a sip from a water fountain....and most certainly don't need gels for these kind of times. I'm not trying to sound like I'm superman or something, but I think people think too much about water and gels for short distances. What I drink the day before and before the race gets a person through races under 2 hours just fine.

Tim

mcdan016

2 posts since
Sep 20, 2005

51. Nov 12, 2007 12:25 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

I've been following these postings with interest because I've wondered if I should incorporate use of gels in my own HM training. I recently completed a HM in 2:15 and had not used any type of gels during my training. On my long runs, I normally wore a fuel belt with 2 bottles containing plain water and 2 filled with Powerade. (Gatorade made me sick in the heat of a NC summer.) But on race day, I ran the first 5 miles pretty fast and found that by mile 10, I was very fatigued and somewhat dizzy/disoriented. I had stopped for water at every aid station (approx. every 2 miles) and also drank some Ultima at the last station in the hope of getting a little much-needed boost. The Ultima probably helped, but believe I'd have finished much faster and stronger had I used a Gu or a gel. I didn't do it only because I'd never used one in training and didn't want to chance it.

So, my question is: should I try a gel or Gu in training or start with Gatorade (assuming that now that the weather has cooled off my body will tolerate it.)? I agree that some folks might not need the fueling, but my own experience in the HM suggests that I need more than water. (BTW, I attended the pre-race pasta dinner, had pasta two nights before the race as well, had a little something to eat the morning of the race and was well-hydrated, too.)

Girl In Motion

253 posts since
Feb 4, 2007

52. Nov 12, 2007 12:42 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

Annette, go ahead and try one. It's good to test the options available.

I must say, this whole thread shamed me into not taking anything for my long run on Saturday and it was not a good run. I was fine on the way out, but felt drained for a major part of the return and wished I'd taken something with me, even if was only a psychological boost.

JimR022

1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002

53. Nov 12, 2007 1:01 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by flobaby:
I must say, this whole thread shamed me into not taking anything for my long run on Saturday <HR>

It shouldn't have, there are suggestions from many camps in this thread.

Keep in mind, training should be varied. It doesn't hurt to experiment with using supplements or not on longer runs. Don't just measure the benefits of your training runs on how 'good' you felt during them. Some runs you want them to go smoothly and feel fine during them, others need to be more challenging and you need find ways to push through them. When a run is difficult and didn't go well, that doesn't mean it wasn't beneficial.

I usually keep a couple of rules in place. I don't let myself get dehydrated on runs (a little is no big deal, but I don't go dropping liters of sweat without replacing it), I depend mainly on eating well and carb loading for fuel on longer runs, not gels. And if a run is really going bad and I just can't maintain proper form or technique, I abandon it, because struggling along a training run with a death shuffle isn't doing squat for me.

AKTrail

360 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

54. Nov 12, 2007 1:48 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by annette747:
I've been following these postings with interest because I've wondered if I should incorporate use of gels in my own HM training. I recently completed a HM in 2:15 and had not used any type of gels during my training. On my long runs, I normally wore a fuel belt with 2 bottles containing plain water and 2 filled with Powerade. (Gatorade made me sick in the heat of a NC summer.) But on race day, I ran the first 5 miles pretty fast and found that by mile 10, I was very fatigued and somewhat dizzy/disoriented. I had stopped for water at every aid station (approx. every 2 miles) and also drank some Ultima at the last station in the hope of getting a little much-needed boost. The Ultima probably helped, but believe I'd have finished much faster and stronger had I used a Gu or a gel. I didn't do it only because I'd never used one in training and didn't want to chance it.

So, my question is: should I try a gel or Gu in training or start with Gatorade (assuming that now that the weather has cooled off my body will tolerate it.)? I agree that some folks might not need the fueling, but my own experience in the HM suggests that I need more than water. (BTW, I attended the pre-race pasta dinner, had pasta two nights before the race as well, had a little something to eat the morning of the race and was well-hydrated, too.)<HR>

Besides the idea of being low on carbs, you might also consider having too much water (hyponatremic), although not likely in 2:15 time frame. I do agree that carbs are more likely culprit in this case. Ultima only has 10 cal / serving and not that heavy on electrolytes. If you're running in cooler temperatures (not sure where you are, but I snowshoe ran yesterday), you may not be sweating as much.

When you ran the first 5 mi faster than intended, you were probably using more glycogen than on your training runs - plus you weren't taking in any. In training, you were using Powerade. You might compare the nutritional labels of what you're considering (both drinks and gels) - esp. carbs and where they're from (complex vs sugar) as well as electrolytes.
http://www.ultimareplenisher.com/comparesportsdrinks.php[/URL" target="_blank">
I notice they don't include any of the Hammer or Succeed products in their comparisons.

What I've also found is that as my runs get longer and I do more of them and my base is a little larger, I don't need as much fuel as I used to, at least in training. Most of the time, esp. in winter, I do take some food with me even on 1.5-2 hr runs - just in case - but seldom use it.

mcdan016

2 posts since
Sep 20, 2005

55. Nov 12, 2007 2:34 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

AKTrail, I'm in NC, and my training for the HM spanned a very hot summer. Long runs required a great deal of liquid, and I found that water alone was insufficient. I was pretty spent after every one of them, too, but attributed it to the heat and the increasing distance. Never figured any of those LRs would be/should be easy.

The HM took place on Nov. 4, and the temps were 40-50 degrees while I was out there. I probably didn't need the water offered at every aid station, but it was a nice excuse to stop and/or walk for a little while.

It's possible I was over-hydrated, as I wasn't sweating like in training. I felt terrific until about mile 8, when I started to get tired. Figured that was normal. By mile 10 I was mega-tired and starting to get very worried. In Mile 12, a friend found me and paced me in, but there was a lot of running/walking mixed. The running was more of a jog...although I managed to find some steam for an uphill sprint the last 0.3 miles to the finish.

I guess I wasn't prepared for the sheer exhaustion. (This was my first HM.) I opted to leave the fuel belt at home b/c 1) I hate it (dorky/bulky) and 2) the race provided water. They also provided Ultima. But you're correct in that the Powerade provided a little extra boost in training that I wasn't getting during the race.

I'll experiment between now and my next HM. If I can avoid taking gels, I wouldn't mind it. They seem rather gross...

Jim24315

1,988 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

56. Nov 12, 2007 4:04 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcsolar99:
thump thump thump

i'm a 1:19 half marathon pr guy. i don't take them in halfs. but i used to bonk at 2 hours in marathons, and since taking gels religiously in marathons (every 4 miles) i've set two prs.

but we're all experiments of one. my 2 hour bonking puts me in the small group of marathoners (5% according to noakes) who bonk early. chalk it up to poor liver glycogen storage capacity. you've already read posts from other marathoners who don't need anything during a marathon. they're probably describing their bodies with 100% accuracy.

in general, if you're "average", tigger's advice is probably the most relevent. but in reality, you'll only know the right answer for you after some old fashioned trail and error.

good luck with your trial, here's hoping for little error <HR>

Above gets my vote for best post.

I have 2 recent experiences. The first was a HM in mid October. The energy drink was Accelerade. I took a drink every time they stuck a cup out and ran one of my best races of the year (1:26:3). However, I felt nauseous for a few hours afterwards, something that hasn't happened before. Whether or not it was the drink, I can't be sure.

Yesterday I ran a 30k and again the drink was Accelerade. I decided to go with just water for a while and see how I felt. I was doing fine, but grabbed a half cup of the juice at 9 miles, then went back on water the rest of the way. I felt strong throughout while running a slightly negative split. My time of 2:06:25 scored about the same on the grading scale as the one I ran last month while on the "juice" all the way. No nausea afterwards either, although I felt the beginnings of a stitch shortly after I took my only drink of the juice.

If they had my favorite drink of "Recharge", which is sold at Whole Foods, I would take it in a race. I've used it on training runs and do fine with it. Otherwise I'll go with water and not worry about it.

mcsolar99

1,018 posts since
Aug 14, 2007

57. Dec 26, 2007 7:30 AM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by seeericarun:
I said that there are three main sources of fueling your brain: dietary, liver (and kidney) glycogen and ketone bodies from fat.

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, but I was not trying to say that you burn the liver glycogen first, just that it was your primary concern (and not the glycogen in your muscles), because once that is burned, that is when you will feel like butt.

http://This message has been edited by seeericarun (edited Nov-11-2007).<HR>

errr, ummm.

here's my understanding: your muscles most efficiently use muscle glycogen or fat. they can store lots of glycogen, especially if you train and load them; and the energy supplied by fat stores is virtually limitless.

but to fire your muscles, you need signals from your brain and central nervous system. your brain doesn't magically make these signals, it takes energy; and your brain gets this from blood glucose, manufactured by your liver. at race activity levels, your brain and cns can use 1gm/minute of glucose (i.e. 240 cals per hour). some people, like me, can only store about 500 cals in their liver. when that runs out, your brain and cns work more slowly, since the available energy is then body fats, and they can only be processed to produce glucose at a slower rate.

it's probably a result of evolution and not a coincidence, but during hard exercise, people can digest 1 gm/minute of carbs from what they eat. so by digesting a gel, you are able to supply your brain and cns with the energy needed to fire your muscles.

think of two independent systems: your brain and cns need energy to fire your muscles -- they can be thought of as the electrical system of your car, firing the spark plugs. your muscles use other stores of glycogen to propel your body... think of this as your cylinders and drive shaft, fueled from the gas tank of your car. your car needs both systems to work properly to run.

edited to add: hmmm, how come our bodies don't have an alternator?

http://This message has been edited by mcsolar99 (edited Nov-12-2007).

pismodiver

38 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

58. Nov 12, 2007 5:58 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcsolar99:

edited to add: hmmm, how come our bodies don't have an alternator?
]<HR>

That's what the liver is. It stores glycogen in times of plenty, and releases it and makes glucose in times of need.

(That's what a car's alternator does, right?

)

mcsolar99

1,018 posts since
Aug 14, 2007

59. Nov 12, 2007 6:57 PM

in response to: cpenfiel

quote:<HR>Originally posted by pismodiver:
That's what the liver is. It stores glycogen in times of plenty, and releases it and makes glucose in times of need.

(That's what a car's alternator does, right? )<HR>

well, i guess in my simple minded thinking, the liver is more like a battery, storing glycogen and releasing it.

an alternator would take some output from muscle glycogen burning and replenish the glycogen supplies in the liver. so continuing this analogy way past where it might be useful, it seems like our bodies drain the battery (liver) producing sparks to ignite the fuel in our cylinders (muscles), and when the liver battery runs dry, then we stop. or at least slow down from running to walking or crawling (ie we bonk).

in a car, the driveshaft rotates the alternator, which produces ac current, which is rectified and then used to recharge the battery. so why can't our leg muscles produce excess glucose that would then recharge the liver supplies? maybe that's what lactic acid does, except the process is much slower, and considerably more painful?

maybe the key is that both systems in our body use the same fuel (glycogen), so any excess muscle glycogen released would be locally converted to more muscle contraction? hmm, seems like in the best of all worlds though, a by-product from the muscle glycogen use could be set off into the blood stream, and then processed by something in the liver to keep the liver glycogen stores topped off... since the liver doesn't have to do anything like contract... lazy @ss liver...

1 2 3 4 5 Previous Next Go to original post

New Runners

Training

Competition

Age Groups

Fitness

The Lighter Side

Feedback

Related Links