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Click to view JimR022's profile Legend 1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002
30. Nov 26, 2007 10:03 AM in response to: tdelafe
quote:<HR>Originally posted by tdelafe:
...I read my Runner's World religiously every month...<HR>


quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jim Sullivan:
Then you're definitely a jogger. End of story.

<HR>




My wife got me a subscription to RW and keeps letting it renew. I told her to drop the subscription next time around. I glaze through it, but have never read Bingham's articles. I do read Gallowanky's stuff for a laugh.
Click to view aurang's profile Legend 1,362 posts since
Jun 26, 2003
31. Dec 26, 2007 7:53 AM in response to: tdelafe
quote:<HR>Originally posted by tdelafe:
Sure, it would be great to have the luxury of working out 2-3 times a day, but what's harder: getting up at 5 a.m. to run, then going to work for an 8-10 hour day plus commuting, coming home to family responsibilities and having to prepare your own food, only to wake up the next day to do it all over again ... or ... running 3x a day with a personal trainer, dietician, speed coach, pacer and unlimited fitness equipment at my disposal and know that my only job when I got home was to get a good night's sleep? I think I'll take the latter, if you're offering ... =-)

I read my Runner's World religiously every month and use all the tips I can from the experts ... I'm just saying I'll never run a 7-minute mile or a sub-4 hour marathon.

<HR>
I don't care if you have a full-time job. You either work hard at running or you don't. I go to school and I work part-time and I choose to go out. As a result, I can't work as hard at running as someone who does it professionally. What's so hard about admitting that?

That said, admiration and excellence in this sport result from speed, not from how hard you work. I don't care if you run 3 times a day and run 200 miles a week but can't run a 4-hour marathon. I'm going to admire the sub-2:10 guy more than you.

http://This message has been edited by aurang (edited Nov-26-2007).
Click to view mrinertia's profile Legend 1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
32. Dec 26, 2007 7:53 AM in response to: tdelafe
quote:<HR>Originally posted by aurang:
[b] QUOTEOriginally posted by tdelafe:


That said, admiration and excellence in this sport result from speed, not from how hard you work. I don't care if you run 3 times a day and run 200 miles a week but can't run a 4-hour marathon. I'm going to admire the sub-2:10 guy more than you.

http://This message has been edited by aurang (edited Nov-26-2007).
<HR>


True, but hard work deserves respect, too.

Person A - peaked at 55 MPW ran a 3:09:06 innaugeral marathon.

Person B - after an innaugeral marathon of 4:10 and 4 subsequent tries, peaks at 70 MPW and runs a 3:09:55 and BQs

I respect person B's slower marathon more than the faster Person A's.
Click to view melistic's profile Legend 839 posts since
Oct 11, 2007
33. Dec 26, 2007 7:53 AM in response to: tdelafe
quote:<HR>Originally posted by aurang:

That said, admiration and excellence in this sport result from speed, not from how hard you work. I don't care if you run 3 times a day and run 200 miles a week but can't run a 4-hour marathon. I'm going to admire the sub-2:10 guy more than you.
...
Someone who sucks at something and doesn't really work at it is so much more impressive than a professional who devotes their life to that activity.

<HR>


So which is it?

maybe not to you...but to quite a few of us admiration and excellence are separate entities.
We admire Team Hoyt. They will never be first but they will always perservere..
Marion Jones' excellence should not be admired
...
you seem to be missing the conection between training and performance. do you think your sub 2 hr marathon god is not working hard? Can't have it both ways. Can't admire your brother for not trying to sing while bashing runners who can't devote endless hours. You can knock hard work yet praise natural talent, without hard work those naturally speedy and excellent runners would never see glory. For even a natural speed but be nourished.



http://This message has been edited by melistic (edited Nov-26-2007).
Click to view cruxjuris's profile Pro 74 posts since
Oct 5, 2004
34. Dec 26, 2007 7:53 AM in response to: tdelafe
The Jogger Manifesto (in capital letters, por favor...) or how the race snake is rotting from its tail. Camping & scuba diving are missing you.

http://This message has been edited by cruxjuris (edited Nov-26-2007).
Click to view rbbmoose's profile Legend 324 posts since
Oct 12, 2007
35. Dec 26, 2007 7:53 AM in response to: tdelafe
quote:<HR>Originally posted by cruxjuris:
The Jogger Manifesto (in capital letters, por favor...) or how the race snake is rotting from its tail. Camping & scuba diving are missing you.

http://This message has been edited by cruxjuris (edited Nov-26-2007).
<HR>


Come on, we're all winners, every kid deserves a huge trophy just for going out for the team and dodgeball should be banned from gym class.

After all aren't running gatherings (race is too competitive oriented) really all about charity?

Get with the program guys!

With peace and universal brotherhood for all,
Ray
Click to view Jim Sullivan032's profile Community Moderator 516 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
36. Nov 26, 2007 3:23 PM in response to: tdelafe
Speaking of manifestos, anyone remember Ted Kaczynski? If you think about it, he was one of those people who showed a lot of commitment, even if his results weren't very impressive.

I wonder what he would have thought of runners. I'm guessing you wouldn't have seen him at many races, being a bit of a loner and and all. And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have had a Garmin. Beyond that, anyone's guess is as good as mine.

Oh well, I seem to be digressing. Don't mind me.
Click to view mrinertia's profile Legend 1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
37. Nov 26, 2007 3:46 PM in response to: tdelafe
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jim Sullivan:
Speaking of manifestos, anyone remember Ted Kaczynski? If you think about it, he was one of those people who showed a lot of commitment, even if his results weren't very impressive.

I wonder what he would have thought of runners. I'm guessing you wouldn't have seen him at many races, being a bit of a loner and and all. And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have had a Garmin. Beyond that, anyone's guess is as good as mine.

Oh well, I seem to be digressing. Don't mind me.
<HR>


It depends on how you define success. He kept under the police radar for years and only got caught because his brother turned him in.
Click to view cruxjuris's profile Pro 74 posts since
Oct 5, 2004
38. Nov 26, 2007 4:58 PM in response to: tdelafe
quote:<HR>Originally posted by tdelafe:
You?ll find me lined up in the corrals at the very back of the marathon cue (..) Surrounded by my fellow plodders, I trod along in that slow, measured time, with the reassuring thud ? thud ? thud of an army of tortoises all around me. <HR>


You've registered for races, right ? Why ?

For me, there is no such thing as a ?race pace? or a tempo run, or marathon pace ? when I run, I run. I concentrate on putting one foot in front of the other. I give my all every time I go out and whether it?s at a 5K or a half-marathon or distance training run, it?s pretty much all the same pace [/QUOTE]

You are serious, aren't you ?

When I run the popular routes with the throngs of other runners on those early mornings, I see my fellow joggers plodding along, getting passed by ?real? runners (...) and I wonder, who is the better athlete? Is it the guy or girl born with that special kick (..) or is it the one who struggles for every mile, determined not to give up, straining and using every ounce of energy to keep going forward, not quitting even though every muscle screams for relief? [/QUOTE]

You dare to ask...

My heroes aren?t Uta Pippig and Ryan Hall; my heroes are the John Binghams[/URL" target="_blank">and the Kaes[/URL" target="_blank"> of the world (...) all those athletes who put one heavy foot in front of the other day after day, who train not for an Olympic speed record or the hope of fame but for the sense of accomplishment (..) My inspiration comes from myself (...) [/QUOTE]

The only thing you've accomplished is to demonstrate a lack of respect and understanding for what racing is all about while I just lost 15:00 of my life.
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
39. Dec 26, 2007 7:53 AM in response to: tdelafe
quote:<HR>Originally posted by tdelafe:
Sure, it would be great to have the luxury of working out 2-3 times a day, but what's harder: getting up at 5 a.m. to run, then going to work for an 8-10 hour day plus commuting, coming home to family responsibilities and having to prepare your own food, only to wake up the next day to do it all over again ... or ... running 3x a day with a personal trainer, dietician, speed coach, pacer and unlimited fitness equipment at my disposal and know that my only job when I got home was to get a good night's sleep? I think I'll take the latter, if you're offering ... =-)

I read my Runner's World religiously every month and use all the tips I can from the experts ... I'm just saying I'll never run a 7-minute mile or a sub-4 hour marathon.

<HR>


Well, you have some good points and it is well-written but I MUST add a few thoughts.

First of all, it's a little insulting to those of us who run fast AND work hard. I've got a 30:57 10K PR, you imply I'm talented so you are to be admired for working harder, gutting it out, and being out there longer. Well, you overlook the fact that my first official race was a 27-minute 2-mile and I was a solid back-of-the-packer for several years. SIX years after I started running, I managed to get good enough to walk onto a small, no-scholarship college team and again anchor the back of the pack. After college I DOUBLED my weekly mileage and ran many, many 100+ mile weeks to finally run that 30:57 and a 2:28 marathon at age 28.

To be told that I am just genetically gifted with a perfect body, instead of recognizing that my body has instead been conditioned and shaped by 16 years of increasingly intense and progressively higher volumes of training, is insulting. Quite honestly if you think that 1% of the 4hr+ marathoners out there put in anything approaching the amount or level of training that I did to get there you are fooling yourself.

I am not diminishing your accomplishments, I am glad you are out there and enjoy it. Just don't insult those faster than you to build up your opinion of your accomplishments.

Training 2-3 times a day is not "a luxury" at all. It's the result of hard choices in life and prioritization. I've left for 18-mile runs at 11pm...i've changed for runs in the most questionable of places to squeeze one in and stunk out my classmates in college because I HAD to fit a run in and couldn't shower. I won't even THINK about the sacrifices in time that my wonderful wife has made to allow me to pursue my running dreams.

I work 45-60 hrs/week, some weekends, lots of travel, and have a wife and kid. I'm slow right now but have been very fast with all these responsibilities, not because of magic genes but because I don't make excuses and make it a priority to get my butt out the door in any weather or circumstance.

If you start by saying you'll never run a 4-hr marathon or a 7-minute mile then you are right, you won't. Of course, at age 14 I never would have imagined a 17:00 5K, at age 18 a 16:00 5K, at 22 a 31:00 10K, or at 24 a 2:28 marathon. The difference is that while I couldn't imagine it, I didn't tell myself I couldn't do it, either. I just put my nose to the grindstone, didn't consider training time "a luxury", and did the work to see just how well I could do.

If you don't want to run for that reason, that's perfectly fine, just admit it. Making all the excuses just belittles those of us who know the sacrifices it takes and know what is possible when you don't put arbitrary limits on yourself.

My point is that it is easier to stereotype than to understand. I don't assume all slower people don't work hard. You shouldn't assume all faster runners are just more gifted, don't work as hard in some way because they are faster, or have a "luxury" that allows them to train like they do.



http://This message has been edited by AndyHass (edited Nov-26-2007).
Click to view milkbaby004's profile Legend 464 posts since
Jul 28, 2003
42. Nov 26, 2007 7:08 PM in response to: tdelafe
My personal opinion is that being a runner or being a jogger are not mutually exclusive. I consider myself both... In fact, I'm hard pressed to really define the difference between the two. I feel the jogger is a runner who enjoys the running not solely concerned with performance, so you can be both...
Click to view backstretch's profile Expert 51 posts since
Dec 15, 2007
43. Nov 26, 2007 7:44 PM in response to: tdelafe
quote:<HR>Originally posted by tdelafe:
"I am a jogger and not ashamed to say so."

<HR>


As am I...... In fact I have only seen 2 guys running on city streets. One was trying o catch a bus, the other was being chased by some guy