quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:
I think the Kenyans would win handily. Salazar, Rodgers and Meyer are far too old to race competitively anymore!<HR>

In fact I can beat Rodgers. I've beaten him on a number of occasions.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by ATLrunner:
In fact I can beat Rodgers. I've beaten him on a number of occasions.<HR>

I could beat him if it was a full contact marathon and I had a single step head start!

quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:
I could beat him if it was a full contact marathon and I had a single step head start!

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You might be surprised, he just runs for fun now, and who can blame him. He's had more than his share of success. Here's the last time I saw him.

http://www.coolrunning.com/results/07/ma/Mar18_Rasnah_set1.shtml[/URL" target="_blank">

Nobby, your historical knowledge astounds me. I don't know if those three guys were the most dominant figures of their time. They're among my favorites though since I grew up in Boston. In fact I went to the same high school as Salazar, and was coached the same guy who coached him, so I've got a particular reason to be a big supporter of his. I don't know the specifics of his training back then, but I do know that he was typically running twice a day, and doing what would now be considered huge mileage for someone that age. I like what you said earlier about being so cautious about overtraining that you forget to work hard.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:
Perhaps, but I think it's unnatural to assume that statistical variation for a genetic predisposition of any type is evenly distributed across the entire human race. <HR>

I guess it is human nature than when we think of genetic variation, the first thing we go to is those attributes which are physically visible. I work in the field of medicine, where we are VERY concerned about how different groups of people may respond to different drugs.

In actuality, we find very, very few cases where the distribution of factors falls along the lines of race. The reaction of African-Americans to blood pressure medications is only one of a few I can think of offhand. Now geopraphic or a cultural group that has been isolated for a long time, that's a little better correlation. However, overall, the distribution of genes is a lot better than the lay person may think.

In other words, sure, good genes may be a little more frequent in ccertain populations, but our population is several fold over that of East Africa as a whole. We probably have more talent her but just don't make use of it.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:
I'm not trying to poke you in the eye with a stick here. I was merely wondering if some ethnic groups (race or ethnic group) got a little bit more talent than others. You seem to feel that talent is evenly distributed amongst humans in general, and the dominant group is the one with the best system to develop talent I'm not so sure. Most of Kenya produces very few runners....nothing out of the statistically abnormal. But one region (one region of one province) is a statistical abnormality due to the high number of runners it produces
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Well, I used to wonder why, if black Americans are originally from Africa, there's no sprinter from Africa. That is until Frankie Frederick showed up. It's an interesting assessment about that one, or very few, regions in Kenya seem to continue to produce great distance runners... But then again, I would ask a question: Is it because of the program they have? You see, Kip Keino is their hero in that area. They look up to him. Those runners are their role models. Naturally, kids want to grow up to be like them. Or is it the program from outside? Did Fila or Nike or Puma or whatever try the same type of developmental program elsewhere? I mentioned Kenyan domination in 800 and SC. Now, you really don't hear Kenyan women dominating 800 and/or now SC. Is it because my assessment is competely out in the left field...or is it because not too many female in Kenya, or any other African countries in that matter, tried those events yet??? Now we saw a beautiful Kenyan girl winning 800 in Osaka. I bet we asked the same question about Kenyan female marathon runners and now look what we have.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:
You seem to feel that talent is evenly distributed amongst humans in general, and the dominant group is the one with the best system to develop talent I'm not so sure.
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Now I can "play Richard" and say, "I've never said that" ;o) but unlike him, I'll offer you my point of view. Absolutely not. We all have different genes or different talents or, simply differences. But my biggest question, and this is my biggest problem in accepting this "genetic" BS, so define what "genetic" that matters most to become a good distance runner. Some seem to think long skinny legs. I wonder what that walrus guy would say when he saw 1983 Fukuoka marathon; Seko about 5'7" with all of his 2/3 being his torso, short thick stocky legs, running against Ikangaa, also about 5'7 with 2/3 of him skinny legs . We also had Salazar, who's about, what, 6'2, long legs, skinny calves and big strong thighs... Of course, the least runner looking guy, Seko, came out as a winner. Is he yet another successful non-African "exception"? How many exceptions do we need to convince those by-standers that it ain't matter? Those people would never understand why Seko would go out for an 80km run. Is it VO2Max? Well, then, what about that classic story of Shorter and Pre? Could Lance have run marathon better than Shorter? Now we'll get into some muscle power or economy deal. Well, so someone with the most graceful form would come out as a winner? Or Arnold the Governer? So tell me what genetic talent would it take to become a great runner? Some train a lot--Takahashi would train 70km slow vs. Chiba 30k faster. Takahashi ran 2:19 with Chiba 2:21. Is someone who could train a lot, supposedly meaning with lots of talent, going to blow the field? Ralf Doubell was so fragile he just couldn't run a lot. Same with Doug Padilla. So those who couldn't run a lot, supposedly with less talent according to some people, have no chance beating more talented Kenyans? Or someone who could train a lot, like Seko always come out as a winner? Long legs, skinny legs, big lungs... So what elements from your parents do you seek to determine who's "more talented" than others? You tell me.

You go to some high school regional meet and some kids are so "talented" that he or she would sin 400, 800 and 1600 (so what's up with this distance?) or even 3200. They all say, wow, he's so talented... Where do they go in 7 years time? Is it that it turns out he didn't have any talent that he disappears into obsecurity? What made him "no one" or "less talented"? Genetics? Or bad coaching/training???

I'll tell you what else I personally think as "talent". It's sincerity. Tosa's coach told me of her team-mate, Shibui, former national record holder in the marathon (sub-2:20) and 10000m. He said Shibui has 10 times more physical talent than Tosa. But Tosa is the one who's going to her second Olympics. "Tosa has the ability to make others want to do things for her. That brings her luck," he said. She is a very nice, sincere person. I think it's a very legitimate "talent". The ability to understand the correct training program is another intellectiual talent. Also, Nakamura used to say probably the most important talent of all being the ability to maintain motivation. He used to say Seko had a great deal of "talent". He never lost sight of the importance of daily training. When he was injured and couldn't run at all, he walked up to 30km....with rocks in his hands! To say they had talent and they were exception is absolutele insult to their dedication to training.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:
That would be a warm weather run for me! My PR is -39C for 90 minutes, with the final 30 with bare hands. I have to admit though, there was little or no wind!
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Now where do YOU live? I was talking about 0 degree F, which is about -15C??? The coldest I've ever run was -60F with wind-chill!

Nobby,

As I mentioned in a subsequent post, I don't believe there is a single genetic marker for running. There are probably dozens or hundreds, or maybe even thousands that have to be aligned.

When I was young I used to naturally gravitate towards my grandmother's piano where I would happily plunk out tunes. But my parents couldn't afford one so I never learned how to play, in spite of having some (I believe) untapped talent for music. Now my daughter....she learned how to play because I remembered my lack of opportunity and I bought her a piano to practice on when she was very young, and she is quite good at it now after a dozen years of study and practice. She seems to have the same talent I had, but she also got the opportunity to exploit it.

By coincidence, she is also a pretty good runner, although she didn't get her father's legs thank goodness. I clearly remember my first race when I was in Grade 1. All of the kids lined up for a 50 foot dash, and I came last out of about 30 peers, including all the girls! So, while I love to run, my talent for running is weak on the running side but strong on the motivation side. My daughter is just the opposite. She is weak on the motivation side but strong on the running side. So who is the better runner and who will be the better runner over time? She beat me in a 5k when she was 11 but I beat her in the same race when she was 14 because she never practiced. Now that she's 18 I couldn't touch her at any distance, but she practices a little harder these days!

I am currently living at roughly 55 degrees N Lat...about 50 km from the Pacific Ocean, in beautiful British Columbia. Today it's -20C with 50 kph winds. Not a nice day to run outdoors. When I did that -39C run I was living in N Ontario.

By the way, wind chill only counts if your skin is exposed! And I wonder how many of those 30 kids can still beat me?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by walrusgod:
...i can capitalise i just cba! its not through lack of intelligence or anything! i go to one of the top schools in england and i do use punctuation and everything properly i just cant be bothered on tinternet.
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I didn't mean to sound that I question your intelligence--though I'd have to say that, personally, I do get annoyed by people, particularly English speaking people, who don't spell words correctly ("your vs. you're" or "there vs. their", etc.). I do apologize if you're offended. However, I don't want to make it sound like an old man's bit&^%ng but...it's a bad habbit. It really doesn't look good. Just my personal opinion...

Now, you do have a good point; I watched a program on Kenyan runners based on the research done by Dr. Bengt Saltine and his collegues. Skinny calves, according to their study, do make a difference. I even contacted Dr. Saltine for more insight. The one who gave me his e-mail address was none other than Dr. Peter Snell. When I told him, however, the result of this research, he laughed and said, "Have you seen my calves?"

So yes, I am aware of the structures of calves in black vs. white. But once again, in real life, there are just way too many exceptions to see any guide-line such as these to be followed through. If black runners' calves are more suited to run fast, then how do you explain lack of sprinters coming from other part of Africa? (Of course, I kind of already answered myself...) Donovan Baillie did have a very skinny calves--probably ideal to be a great runner. But then how about Allan Wells, or Bob Hayse? Now, Al Salazar probably had closest to the black runner as a non-African runner--very long skinny calves with big thighs. He was terrible with sprinting!

Let me give you my opinion/suggestion; this is to a young Oriental runner from someone, I'd make a confession, who used to think we, Orientals, were inferior physically. I grew up in the era when no Japanese won any marathon even domestically against most of foreign runners. Something triggered and they all started to run well--very well. Now, there are number of rumours surrounding Ma's Army but I still believe the trick to their success is that they ran a lot. I know of a guy who went there and stayed at Ma's Army training camp for over a month. According to him, they just ran a lot--20k in AM, 20 to 30k in PM...day in and day out. With the gene pool you guys have in China, great athletes were bound to pop out. I'm a HUGE fan of Liu Xiang. Who would have thought there would be the Olympic champion in sprinting event!? Now we have Suetsugu who won the bronze medal in 200m in Paris WC. I'm sure it's not like all of a sudden their genes changed. It's always been there. All that mattered was that they started to train right. Take it or leave it as its worth; just an opinion from someone who's been involved in the sport--actual real-life sport, not the "paper" athletics--for over 35 years. Don't get defeated before you even start it.