quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:
...I am currently living at roughly 55 degrees N Lat...about 50 km from the Pacific Ocean, in beautiful British Columbia. Today it's -20C with 50 kph winds. Not a nice day to run outdoors. When I did that -39C run I was living in N Ontario.
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That's right! You're the one from Canada who's coaching your daughter! Pardon me! So how's she doing? Running with you through the snow and the wind?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by walrusgod:
i do train, and im a 16 year old chinese sprinter. i wasnt saying that non blacks cannot succeed, im saying it is less likely. and btw i can capitalise i just cba! its not through lack of intelligence or anything! i go to one of the top schools in england and i do use punctuation and everything properly i just cant be bothered on tinternet.
however, you cannot argue that the lower legs of black runners are better for running. theres hardly any non black athlete with leg structure like top black athletes. extremely high calves, thin, long lower legs. if your achilles is longer it does make you faster than if you had a shorter achilles, its just a more efficient spring.

http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH1998/JSH2501/jsh2501g.pdf[/URL" target="_blank">

read this its really interesting (and not jsut because it supports my argument). especially p12 with the picture comparing a black and a white athlete.

http://This message has been edited by walrusgod (edited Dec-03-2007).<HR>

I'm sorry, maybe I'm too sensitive, but to me this is bordeline offensive. I just skimmed the article, and it doesn't strike me as a particularly good citation (I skimmed it, but it's a pretty dense read). For the record, unlike Nobby, I do question your intelligence. Here's a quote from the article:

"According to the historian David Wiggins, "W. Montague Cobb, the well-known professor of anatomy at Howard University was so intrigued by the debate over black athletic success in track and field that he took anthropomorphic measurements of Jesse Owens to determine if racially linked physical characteristics accounted for differences in sport performance. Cobb, shown here taking measurements of Owens, ultimately concluded that PROPER TRAINING AND MOTIVATIONS TO SUCCEED WERE THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS IN DETERMINING ATHLETIC SUCCESS." (caps are mine for emphasis)

Saying that all "black" runners -- however you define that -- have a genetic advantage minimizes their accomplishments. Could it be that the top African runners train better and harder? Might they be particularly motivated by, for example, economic incentives? There is a subtle (or less than subtle) racism underlying your expedient dismissal of their achievements.

Are Africans under-represented in speed skating and ice hockey because they don't bear the genetic markers for skating? Or could it be that there are other reasons involved? How do you explain Joan Benoit Samuelson, Ryan Hall, Paula Radcliffe, Mizuki Noguchi? Is Khalid Khannouchi "black" because he is from Morocco? If not, how do you explain his success?

Dick, do you endorse this nonsense? Is this really the logical extension of your genetic argument?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by rengle:
The US has gene pool that dwarfs that of Ethiopia and Kenya combined. Sheer weight of numbers means that we have people with the genetic ability to compete with East Africans. It's a matter of getting them into the sport and properly prepared and all of this defeatist stuff about being inferior to East Africans can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.<HR>

I'm with rengle and Nobby here. Sure there are genetic differences by region, and sure those differences affect running in some very small way, but it's not significant enough to bother with. rengle's point above is key, especially: "It's a matter of getting them into the sport and properly prepared". Right now, there are many more East Africans training seriously than Americans or Western Europeans. It's a matter of numbers, not genetics. How many great soccer players, or football players, or basketball players could be great runners? The fact of the matter is, the top athletes in the US usually don't run. There's more money and fame in other sports so they choose those. Similarly in Europe. If the entire world was as focused on distance running as the East African countries, I very much doubt you would see any regional dominance.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nobby:
That's right! You're the one from Canada who's coaching your daughter! Pardon me! So how's she doing? Running with you through the snow and the wind?<HR>

She is in Ontario right now. She ran university XC as a freshman, was in a couple of US meets, but forgot that she had to pass her exams to stay there, so she withdrew and went home for the year. She's trying to train for Junior Championships this summer.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nobby:
Oh, now I read your previous post. Now she's 18? I thought she was like 12... I try to get my girl (not my daughter, but the girl I'm coaching) motivated and it ain't easy. One is to get together with her at 5:00AM on Friday morning... It was like -20 (F, that is...) with wind-chill last Friday...! It was abolutely terrible! But I'm there. I don't just tell her to get out and do it. I try to suffer through (or have fun through...) as she does. I always go back to the story of Cerutty, running a mile the day before Elliot's mile race. This tiny 70+ year old man, running the mile as hard as he could... Then he would say; "You may run faster tomorrow; but you sure as **** can't run as hard as I just did!" It is this character that makes some coaches very unique. Lydiard, Nakamura, Bowerman, Squires....just to name a few.<HR>

She has a lot of talent and should have a good coach to get it all out. But because we are separated by about 2,000 miles I won't be doing any 5 AM runs with her. I WOULD if I were with her, although she's faster at an easy pace than I am at threshold.

http://This message has been edited by tigger (edited Dec-03-2007).

Moroccan-born athletes have had far, far more success than Tanzanians or Ugandans. Moroccan-born athletes have run 3:26, 7:23, 12:50 (discounting Lahlafi's 12:49), 26:38 and 2:05:38. I don't think it's just

quote:<HR>Originally posted by walrusgod:
i do train, and im a 16 year old chinese sprinter. i wasnt saying that non blacks cannot succeed, im saying it is less likely. and btw i can capitalise i just cba! its not through lack of intelligence or anything! i go to one of the top schools in england and i do use punctuation and everything properly i just cant be bothered on tinternet.
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Walrus:

I just thought about this while putting the 3M insulator up in our bed room and out daughter's bedroom (we do need that here in MN; brrrrrr!)...

Here's, as far as I'm concerned, a great example. Here you are, an intelligent kid who can write just fine--meaning you DO have genetic talent to write right. However, out of laziness or whatever, you decided to appear less intelligent (believe me, it does not look good...). So what does that tell you? You have the potential; but you are too lazy to utilize it or simply chose not to. Is it gene or your own choice?

This is what I'm talking about; accepting that YOU are inferior, be it race or person or whatever, deep down, you WILL duck down from doing what's really necessary--TRAINING. "Ah, what's the point? I'm never gonna make it to beat those Africans..." I'm telling ya, when it comes down to it, it IS a mind game.

Until someone proves that a particular group of people have a genetic advantage I won't believe it. Until then its at best a statistic and at worst a stereotype.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by bigapplepie:
Until someone proves that a particular group of people have a genetic advantage I won't believe it. Until then its at best a statistic and at worst a stereotype.<HR>

Noakes has some interesting thoughts on this subject. You should read The Lore of Running. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I believe testing has demonstrated black Africans (perhaps it's only Kenyans) have a higher aerobic capacity than white athletes.