active network espn
Community: Exchange advice in the forums and read running commentary Resources: Personal running log, calculators, links and other tools for runners News: Running news from around the world Training: Articles and advice about fitness, race training and injury prevention Races/Results: Find upcoming races and past results Home: The Cool Running homepage
Cool Running homepage  Search Cool Running Community
Login to Reply
1 2 Previous Next
Click to view arlahile's profile Pro 145 posts since
Sep 22, 2006

Dec 3, 2007 12:01 AM

how to intro speedwork?

I've been running for a couple of years now. A couple HMs and many other "races". I do 20- 25 mpw on average, starting to work to 30 mpw. My easy runs are currently at 11min to 13 min per mile. Races around 9:15 - 10 min per mi (these are 5 and 10 K races). If it's informative, I'm a thin, 45 yr old woman.

I would like to introduce - once a week or ? - some kind of speedwork, not only because I wouldn't mind going faster, but also because it would be mentally invigorating.

So - Lydiard (and others?) say to start with hill work. Other sources say that 20 min tempo runs offer the most bang for the buck. I enjoy both my flat races and the local hilly (on a cross-country course) races to either hill or tempo work would be fun for me. Maybe it doesn't matter and I should do what feels good.

Thanks in advance,
Arla
Click to view AKTrail's profile Legend 360 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
1. Dec 3, 2007 3:04 AM in response to: arlahile
Listen to your body and do what feels right.

Seriously, besides increasing volume, I would try to do at least one rolling hill run - aerobically - each week. I think Lydiard actually has 2 or 3 of these in his base weeks (my book's downstairs) - that's before the hill phase. What your local topography is like will have a lot to do with what type of hill work you do and your recovery rates and hence how much you can handle in one week or whatever you use for microcycle (some use 10-14 days rather than 7). If you're running xc races, then hill work at all efforts will provide the most specific benefits, IMHO.

I would do Lydiard hill drills maybe once a week or so after you have some basic strength. They'll help develop power, esp. in the vertical direction, which is important for hills.

Depending on size of hills and / or steepness of downhills, you could do tempo runs (comfortably hard) at constant effort on gentle hills (takes some concentration). But you might be better alternating hills and tempo runs on weekly basis or perhaps one of each each week - depending on frequency that you're running. Some define tempo in terms of constant pace, in which case that might be more like fartleks by effort on hills. They all have benefits.

But you're probably better off starting tempo efforts on relatively flat runs where you can get a better feel for the effort and pace before trying them on hills. And they'd be more specific for your flat races. But hills are always good, IMHO.

FWIW, I tend to use the aerobic hills for strength endurance, Lydiard hill drills for power, and tempo/LT for stamina. And I've probably been known to do some of each on some runs. We have a lot of rolling hills on my normal trail so it's easy to warmup with aerobic efforts, then add some more intensive stuff in there. I generally only do hilly trail races, so I can never get too many hills.

YMMV. And some of the experience folks can probably give you more complete answers. Or maybe a reason why you might want to do one before the other. (I plead guilty to training by feel and what works for me, which may not be what works for anyone else.)
Click to view Tchuck's profile Legend 554 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
4. Dec 4, 2007 1:56 PM in response to: arlahile
Arla,
To keep it simple, do this. Weekly, add some tempo work, do striders and finish strong on your long run. This is a great start for you.

One time per week within a longer mid week run, after a warm up, do 2 X 10 min at tempo pace or a bit slower than your current 10K race pace. Jog slowly a minute or two between. Then do cooldown miles and striders.

Another day, within long run, finish last couple miles at a faster pace. Not killer but faster if feeling pretty good that day. If feeling great the last 800M pick it up a bit more.

Twice per week mix in 4 - 6 X 100M quick striders toward end of work out or even in middle of a run to mix things up. Not all out speed but a nice hard pace focusing on breathing and running form. EZ jog of 30-60 sec. between.

This is basic but you will find it invigorating and it won't affect your base building but will make a difference.




------------------
Todd[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view Tchuck's profile Legend 554 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
6. Dec 7, 2007 12:02 AM in response to: arlahile
Arl.....

I am suggesting multi pace work, not 4 days of "speed work". What I am suggesting is fairly easy to recover from. You are adding speed but not true "speed work". It is not hard on the body like true speed work.True speed work is sustained 5K pace or faster. i.e. 6 X 800M at 3-5K pace or 10 X 400M at 1 mile pace. That is speed work and requires more recovery. This has more benefits for peaking or as you get closer to 5K or 10K races. Don't do in offseason.

Those 100M striders are short (20 sec.). No big deal but do help leg turnover and running economy. Tempo work is not "speed work" but it is faster than normal and trains lactate threshold. The faster finish long run also is an aerobic strengthening work out, not speed work. This conditions you to be strong as your legs gets tired. Not a bad benefit for racing season.

If concerned about speed of the tempos do them a bit slower but a bit longer i.e. work up to 20 and then 40 min down the road at a pace 1 min slower than current 5K race pace. This pace feels good.

The above are very standard work outs in base building. I am in your boat and generally do 20-25 miles per week and the above is no problem. But, work your way into it. Maybe start with 10 min at tempo and 3 striders. You get the idea.

------------------
Todd[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
8. Dec 9, 2007 7:25 AM in response to: arlahile
quote:<HR>Originally posted by arlahile:
I've been running for a couple of years now. A couple HMs and many other "races". I do 20- 25 mpw on average, starting to work to 30 mpw. My easy runs are currently at 11min to 13 min per mile. Races around 9:15 - 10 min per mi (these are 5 and 10 K races). If it's informative, I'm a thin, 45 yr old woman.

I would like to introduce - once a week or ? - some kind of speedwork, not only because I wouldn't mind going faster, but also because it would be mentally invigorating.

So - Lydiard (and others?) say to start with hill work. Other sources say that 20 min tempo runs offer the most bang for the buck. I enjoy both my flat races and the local hilly (on a cross-country course) races to either hill or tempo work would be fun for me. Maybe it doesn't matter and I should do what feels good.

Thanks in advance,
Arla
<HR>


Arla:

I hope you realize increasing mileage (20~25 to 30, which is, while I don?t really care too much for the actual number when the total mileage is so low, you realize it?s a whopping 20% increase) AND adding quality workout (not one but more than one, Todd!?) would not be a smart move particularly when your base (aerobic base) is still very low.

If your goal is just simply go out and have a good time running, by all means, just go out and have a good time by throwing in some fast stuff here and there and take as much time you want to recover from them. But if you have some specific goal like running a half marathon in March or trying to improve upon your 10k time in the spring; then you might want to consider taking some time and structuring your training program. That might involve, whether you like it or not, keeping it an easy (and boring) running once in a while.

The thing is; your running 25MPW doesn?t mean much at all; you could be doing 5 miles a day 5 times a week; or you might go for a long run of, say, 10 miles on weekend plus medium long run of 7 on midweek and a couple of 3s or 4s? Now, that?s a bit more structure with certain purpose. Now you have hard/easy program and you?d replace one of those ?hard? days (usually mid week medium long run) with one quality work. You?ll have hills (which is probably the best quality work to begin with as AKTrail had suggested) or some reps or tempo type run. While it would be a good idea and make sense to move from less anaerobic but introducing strength and technique (hills) to more exacting faster work but still with some recovery in between like repetitions; then finally, harder continuous work like tempo (of course, by changing the over-all effort of the tempo run, you can do it as glorified distance run or as more exacting workout). But the point is; this way, you?re not necessarily shifting over-all ?effort? throughout the week but you?re introducing a different type of stress.

Once a week of easy strides of anywhere between 80m to 120m OR easy fartlek work, like you said, done over golf course is always good. Don?t make it a prolonged anaerobic training?meaning, don?t run too fast, don?t make it so long that you get into ?breathlessness? and don?t do too many of them at first. For easy strides, I?d like to do them on the road by using the count system. Suppose your strides is about 5 feet long, it?s about 3m for 2 steps; or roughly 60 steps for 90m. Count ?one? every time your right foot hits the ground (or left, whichever you want!); so ?one count? would be your 2 steps. So 60 steps, or 30 counts, would be roughly 90m (close enough for 100!)? This type of ?strides? is a speed workout; in other words, you don?t want to rush it because, if your legs get too tired or if you get too winded, you can?t produce ?good relaxed speed?. So take plenty of recovery rest in between?3 minutes would be good. This means, instead of just turn around and go back and do another one, float a bit after you?re done striding (so extend this 90m stretch all the way to, say, 150m, THEN turn around and JOG NICE AND EASILY back and even extend a bit there as well. Also, ?speed? is a nerve thing so you don?t want any ?struggle?. This means, if the road is slightly angled, do this downhill instead of uphill (this is different from resistance hill exercise); or if there?s a strong wind, do this WITH the wind, not into the wind. Take a good 3 minutes recovery before you do another one. Footing is very important so don?t do this if the road is snowy or icy. Too many people mix up strides with hard toughening interval/repetition and go right into another one or make this a macho uphill sprinting. Don?t. It?s a different purpose.

But you need to shuffle them all together so you won?t get overstressed. It would be a good idea to have one, two at most including a weekend?s long run, and shuffle around all those elements. Remember, all the easy recovery jogging between hard workouts, regardless of how many days that would be, is just as important as those tough workout. If you need two or three days to recover, so be it. Well, actually, perhaps most importantly, do go by how you feel. Way too many people try to stick with the schedule too much. I hear SO many times that someone asking a question, ?I?m SUPPOSED to run 10 today but I?m too tired or too sore? What do I do???? Well, your body is sending a message that you?re too tired! Don?t do it!!! Same thing; if your body is sending a message that you want to go do some fast stuff; go and do it. If your body is saying to slow down, go slow. Learn to listen to your ?Inner Coach? more than some stranger on the message board.
Click to view runawayjesse's profile Legend 538 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
10. Dec 9, 2007 11:46 AM in response to: arlahile
I would increase your miles and run hills. Just hit up a hilly course and run at the same pace as usuall. Strid down the hills and maybe 20-30 secs burst on the flats. That once a week alone casn raise you to a new fitness level.
Click to view AKTrail's profile Legend 360 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
11. Dec 9, 2007 4:32 PM in response to: arlahile
quote:<HR>Originally posted by arlahile:
One question: I'm always surprised to hear people say 25 mpw is "so low", while OTOH I've read in Noakes that more than 4 hrs a week of aerobic running does not add to fitness, (presumably it just adds time on feet) - so, what IS a good number of miles per week for a good aerobic base? <HR>

I split this question out since it's always an interesting discussion. I think it partly depends on what is meant by "fitness" and whether your goals are to be "fit" or to be "the best you can be" or somewhere in between. I tend to use time rather than miles because of snow, trails, hills, weather, etc and most physiological responses (and the literature) are usually based on time and intensity. 1 mi of flat, dry pavement doesn't equal 1 mi of snow nor of hilly trails. Nothing's harder or easier, necessarily - just different. But that's not my point. (although admittedly, when someone says they ran 50 mpw, I have no idea how much time they're spending running - a low-mileage fast runner, or a slower runner putting in lots of time)

When I was working in summer and only running in winter and had some foot issues, I probably got in the 2-3ish (maybe 4 at most) hr range per week, if I was lucky. Now, assuming somewhat decent outside conditions, I tend to gravitate to about 5-6 hr/wk at the low end (xt class included) and would be climbing walls on less. During peak training, I was probably getting in the 12+ hr range alternating with 6-8 hr (I usually use a microcycle somewhere in the 12-15 day range, so long runs are every other week and makes weekly mileage highly variable). I do feel much more fit (whatever that is) now than a few years ago.

On that basis (like my experiment of one means anything to anybody but me), I'm thinking that Noakes was probably talking about general health type fitness - and 4 hr / wk is a little over 0.5 hr/day of exercise. To me, it seems like 6 hr / wk (avg 1 hr/day plus one off day, or 1.5 hr on 4 days) isn't too unreasonable for reasonble running fitness (not competitiveness) - AFTER one has built to it gradually. That comment was meant mostly as a straw man, since I have been curious as to what volumes (time wise) are considered reasonable - whatever that is. My sense is that when one gets up around 15 hrs / wk (may include things besides running or running only), one is usually one of the harder working runners, someone who is a trainer working out with their clients, SEAL training, or whatever - that is, not someone running solely for relaxation and stress relief. (I've tried to be careful in my wording to not offend anyone. I'm looking at concepts. I do consider myself a fun runner, who, in retirement, does have more time to run, but didn't always.)
Click to view Tchuck's profile Legend 554 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
12. Dec 9, 2007 4:54 PM in response to: arlahile
quote:<HR>Originally posted by AKTrail:
To me, it seems like 6 hr / wk (avg 1 hr/day plus one off day, or 1.5 hr on 4 days) isn't too unreasonable for reasonble running fitness (not competitiveness) B]<HR>


I run or have run a sub 20 min 5K and 1:30 half and would consider myself a competitive runner - meaning I try to place in my age group and try to PR each race and get faster with my training techniques. I have even won a 5K race.

I have never ever run 4 hours in one week. At my peak with best race times, I would run 4 days per week with runs of 75-85 min, 60 min, 45 min and 30 min.

It is difficult to label a person based on their training time. I think general fitness would be 3 runs at 20-30 min. Someone with great genetics may even be competitive with this. Anything more and you are running with more goals than general fitness. This may be fun, enjoyment, race prep, stress relief, weight loss etc. My 3-4 hours of running puts my in top 5-10% of all races. 6 hours of running per week would probably put me in top 2-3% of all runners based on my genetics. It is all relative and we all have our own definitions.

------------------
Todd[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view runawayjesse's profile Legend 538 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
13. Dec 9, 2007 4:59 PM in response to: arlahile
quote:<HR>Originally posted by arlahile:
Thanks, Nobby. I've read a lot of your posts and respect your opinion. I LIKE the idea of swapping a "hard" day for a fartlek or stride or hill day and swapping the specific type of workout from week to week. One question: I'm always surprised to hear people say 25 mpw is "so low", while OTOH I've read in Noakes that more than 4 hrs a week of aerobic running does not add to fitness, (presumably it just adds time on feet) - so, what IS a good number of miles per week for a good aerobic base?

<HR>


I sorta agree with this to an extent. Since your body adapts to stress over time mileage is completely irrielvent.I don't agree with the 4 hour thing though. Lydiard hit the nail on the head with his time recommendation. My current base I completely ignore mileage and run as Lydiards suggests in his buildup.
m-1 hour
T- 1.5 hours
W-1 hour
TH-1.5 hours
F-1 hour
S- 2 hours
Su- 1 hour

I run all my runs btw 70 and 99% of aerobic effort which pretty much vary from a slow jog to just under marathon effort. These days I'm actually gaining more from the slower side of things.

I recommend NOT worrying about mileage or speed till you can run a schedule like above without any problems. Go as slow as you need to build up to that.

This is the first time I could convince my ego to not count the mileage and worry about pace and somehow out of that I'm running further and faster than before.