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Click to view lesliek's profile Amateur 18 posts since
Sep 5, 2007

Dec 3, 2007 7:31 AM

how long hill repeats?

I am training for my first full marathon and need some advice about hill repeats. I know they are important but don't know how to do them. How long should the hills be and how many per run (the run that I'm doing them - not every run)? I feel like I have a decent plan for intervals, but don't know how to do the hill repeats.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Leslie
Click to view tigger077's profile Legend 691 posts since
Nov 19, 1999
1. Dec 3, 2007 8:23 AM in response to: lesliek
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
2. Dec 3, 2007 10:08 AM in response to: lesliek
quote:<HR>Originally posted by lesliek:
I am training for my first full marathon and need some advice about hill repeats. I know they are important but don't know how to do them. How long should the hills be and how many per run (the run that I'm doing them - not every run)? I feel like I have a decent plan for intervals, but don't know how to do the hill repeats.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Leslie
<HR>


Leslie:

What's your level? Personally, I don't necessarily recommend any specific hill repeats or intervals if you're, say, 4:30 marathon runner. Well, I take it back. Hill will benefit; but you need to approach it correctly. For the marathon, longer steeper hill with slower forward momentum would work best. None of those short hill sprint type of stuff. Same with intervals. Yasso 800 works great if you know what you're doing. No point plodding along 5-minute for 800 and "recovery jog" @ 5:15 for the next 800... Your effort will be much better spent if you do a straight 10-miler or 200m intervals.

If you're a slower than 3:30 marathon runner, I wouldn't recommend hill bounding exercise. By the way, I'm the co-founder of Lydiard Foundation and that website, but I'm also a model for hill bounding! ;o) (I'm the president, but I'm also a client...)
Click to view JimR022's profile Legend 1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002
4. Dec 3, 2007 10:44 AM in response to: lesliek
How's the downhills on this Mercedes course? These can be tougher on you than going uphill.
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
5. Dec 3, 2007 10:46 AM in response to: lesliek
AKTrain! Where's AKTrain!? We need AKTrail here!!!
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
7. Dec 3, 2007 11:04 AM in response to: lesliek
quote:<HR>Originally posted by lesliek:
Nobby - thanks so much for your thoughts and I will appreciate any additional thoughts you throw my way. Here's my background (should have set it out in my first email):

I'm a 41 year old female and this is my first marathon. I hope to complete it around 4:30. I've done 4 half-marathons in the past but obviously am not a speedy runner. This particular marathon (Mercedes in Birmingham) is very hilly and has one mountain you have to climb twice. I guess it's just from reading about marathon training that led me to figure I need hill repeats. Having said that, a lot of my runs include some pretty good hills, whether I want them to or not, so setting out to do hill repeats may not be as important as I thought.

If this leads you to any additional thoughts for my training, I'd love to hear them! Thanks.

Leslie
<HR>


Leslie:

Thanks for the input. I would continue to have as many hills as you can in your long runs... Well, actually I take it back. How about alternating hilly long run one week and flat (if you can find it) long run the next? This is just to get your good rythm going one week and, by running long runs a bit harder effort might help you push your oxygen uptake level better. Besides, your legs need a break too! ;o)

Depending on how many more weeks you have, I would map out to alternate hilly long run and flat long run.

On the top of that, I would consider doing Steep Hill Running exercise. Even most of your runs involve hills, these hill exercises are specific exercises. Steep Hill Running involves exaggerated knee lift and ankle snap. Naturally, you wouldn't be moving up too fast but that's what you want. The slower the forward momentum, the more resistance you'd feel. Hope that DVD visual on the website would help.

When I helped this young lady to run her first marathon, instead of doing one long run on weekend and another medium long run on mid-week; we did hill training mid-week. We started working out for 20 minutes of hill running and worked our way up to an hour, using 400m steep hill. And Jim had an excellent point; downhill running IS very important in marathon running--particularly more so on hilly course marathon. If you could find a bit less steep hill for downhill running, let gravity do the work and stride down the hill fast. Downhill running is an excellent eccentric exercise and strengthen your quads in particular. If you can't find less steep hill for downhill running, just be cautious about it but still don't be afraid to run down. Sometimes what I do is; most hills become more gradual toward the bottom of the hill. So we'd jog down 2/3 of the hill and pick up the pace and "coast" the final 1/3 plus a bit more on the flat as you pick up the speed. This would help your leg speed as well.

Maybe if you're not used to this type of exercise, do this once every two weeks. Forget the particular length of the hill (start out with anywhere from 1 to 1:30 for the uphill section) or how many times--go by the total time. I would run up the hill; jog around just a little bit; then down fast; jog about some more...repeat for 15 minutes and see how your legs feel. If you feel out of breathe or you can't even lift your knees any more; I would lengthen the recovery jog first. No point getting into too anaerobic at this point. Give your legs plenty of rest SO THEY CAN DO THE APPROPRIATE EXERCISE CORRECTLY. If you run them too fast, or you do them when your body is too tired, then invariably, your form will be all over the place. Then you'll be teaching your body to run incorrectly and that's NOT what you want.

I'll tell you a little secret: I used to hate uphills. But when I went to NZ, and Arthur put me to do lots of hill training, I noticed I pick up places going up the hill. I still hated running uphill; but that's when I pass people now. Specific hill training does strengthen your legs a lot more and should help you run hilly courses much more easily than before.
Click to view AKTrail's profile Legend 360 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
8. Dec 3, 2007 3:09 PM in response to: lesliek
Ditto everything that's been said already, esp. Nobby's comments.

Sounds like you're already running a bunch of hills anyway. As already pointed out, there's probably a gajillion ways to run hills. What I've found is that I pay attention to where my weak spots are - whether it's quads or achilles or running with more stamina up 5% slopes or power hiking up 40% slopes or extended downhills (like 1500+ ft drops) - and work on them.

Many hill workouts originated because of what people have for topography, and they adapt their training to that. I used to think there was something magic about the particular size of a hill and hill configurations, then finally realized people just found some really neat workouts they can do on their topography. We just finished building a new 0.5 mi / 80 ft loop of single track trail that connects with our original 1-mi / 170 ft loop (and a 0.5 mi relatively flat approach). I can now do a bow tie route where I can run both loops in both directions (not symmetrical) and never have to do a 180. Dang, a perpetual hill machine without having to deal with the horse stuff on main trails . There's one flattish section on top (about 5 min) where I can stretch my legs a little from the small steps of the hills. The uphill parts take 6+ min. It's twisty enough and just enough roots to make it ok for some high-end aerobic / LT stuff, but can't get faster than that on it at my skill level. On other parts of the main trail system (ski trails), there's some short steep hills, that I like to charge up or do hill drills on.

Sometimes when doing an out/back, I'll work the uphills outbound then the downhills inbound. I will do supplemental strength training, including core, for downhill work, esp. if we've got much ice making the downhills dangerous. I think I've seen people suggest running uphill backwards to downhill strengthening. I haven't done that much, but I can see where it would work - except for developing the ability to pick a line and the agility. But that can be added when conditions are good.

The profile of your course doesn't look too bad - at least the larger hills look like they're 5% or less slopes and largest hills are in the 300 ft range. Slopes on smaller hills may not be accurate in these types of profiles. What I try to do is match the topography of course with my training hills - in pieces if need be. Work on big hills one day and smaller ones on other days. It looks like the most substantial of your downhills is toward the end.

The Lydiard hill drills are a really good way to work on power if you've only got small hills. I always get the names confused, but I tend to use the one emphasizing the larger muscles, but I should do the ankle flicking ones more (but need to strengthen my achilles more before then and I won't do those in cold weather). A little goes a long way, and I'm careful about how to mix them in with my total volume.

Learning to run rolling hill courses is, I think, one of the best ways to train for a race since you learn to judge effort, keep running OVER the top, and keep moving either flat or taking advantage of speed on downhill. Repeats have their place for some things, but they teach you to go hard, do a 180, jog down, repeat. Learning to judge effort is one of the harder things to do these days with all the gadgets (hrm, gps, music, etc) detracting from a runner's attention. (I did learn with a hrm and use it to log my runs since I like to play with numbers, but seldom look at it unless I'm trying to hit a particular zone. On the hills like I run most, 10-30% slopes, when I get near LT, the hrm delay is too long and I'd be toast before I got to top. That does happen occasionally even when going by feel when I'm trying to push my limits, but I have more gears these days.)

I think most training books should give more emphasis to hill training and describe the benefits of different kinds of hills. New runners may not recognize the differences or the benefits.


FWIW, when I first started structured running, I was pretty clueless about a lot of things, including "hills". Being fairly ignorant of running races, I was aware of our local mountain race (3000 ft in 2.5 mi up on the first leg) but no road races (I'd heard of Boston and been trapped by traffic at state fair race) so when my book said "hills", I wasn't sure if they were referring to repeats on the mtn or the little 100 ft, <5% slopes on the roads. I did figure it out. The mtn did seem inconsistent with all the other caveats about beginners shouldn't do this or that.
Click to view Girl In Motion's profile Legend 253 posts since
Feb 4, 2007
10. Dec 3, 2007 4:44 PM in response to: lesliek
quote:<HR>Originally posted by AKTrail:
Many hill workouts originated because of what people have for topography, and they adapt their training to that. I used to think there was something magic about the particular size of a hill and hill configurations, then finally realized people just found some really neat workouts they can do on their topography.<HR>


What an illuminating post, especially this bit above. I've been avoiding hill work, instead wasting lots of time messing around with elevation maps and figuring out grades to find the exact right hill to do repeats on - when all I really need to do is get my butt out there on a hill...any hill! Thanks for this gem of common sense.


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girlinmotion.wordpress.com[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view gregw070's profile Legend 250 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
11. Dec 3, 2007 8:25 PM in response to: lesliek
I was going to start a new thread called "Hill resistance" when I saw this one. I believe that I'm terrible on hills (based on all the people who pass me during races on them) and I lack in the "pure speed" category.

I've been running almost 3 years (it will be three years on 1 January) and have improved my marathon time from 4:49 (Oct 2005) to 4:00 (May 2006) to 3:43 (Nov 2006) to 3:24 (May 2007). In Oct 07 I shot for a 3:15 (BQ) and came up short (on pace through 17 and then faded to 3:27). My mileage averaged 50 mpw in 2006 and will be a little more than that I think in 2007. That includes marathon taper and recovery and I've had pretty long stretches in the 60s (biggest was 67 I think). The vast majority of the training has been easy pace. During the months before a marathon I've done one quality session a week (tempo or VO2max) and sometimes two (tempo and VO2max).

I believe that hill training might help me because I feel like I'm a pretty "weak" runner with decent endurance. By "weak" I mean lacking power/strength. I tend to sit in a bucket[/URL" target="_blank"> in the stance phase and this[/URL" target="_blank"> is about as high as I ever see my knees in race photos while those around me actually look like they're running (also note my turned out right foot). My current PRs are 20:32 for 5K 1:09:49 for 10 miles and 3:24 for the marathon. The fall off in marathon time probably indicates I could use some more endurance, but I believe I'm weak on the 5K end as well.

Based on my background is hill training for me?

I've only done hill training of any kind maybe twice (other than running on hilly terrain) and that hill running was hill intervals that were more like anaerobic intervals (70 secs hard up a hill). Looking at
http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_lecture.pdf.[/URL" target="_blank"> I'm not quite sure what a schedule would look like in the hill resistance phase if, say, I'm doing 60 mpw. I believe it's hills 3x per week with a long run, but which kind of hill training (steep, springing, bounding) and what about the other 3 days? I've seen some of the material has "leg speed" (strides) for the other days and other material doesn't mention anything. Also, what about the distribution of mileage during the hill resistance phase?

A question about
the hill video[/URL" target="_blank">: which technique is which? (They aren't labeled/narrated.) I'm pretty sure the second scene (with Nobby) is hill bounding and the third (with the other models) is hill springing. Is the first scene with Nobby steep hill running?

If you read all that, thanks!
Greg
Guest
12. Dec 3, 2007 8:52 PM in response to: lesliek
I'm training with the long term goal of doing the pikes peak ascent (avg grade 12 degrees). For hill work should I work at hills this grade or also include less steep hills?
Click to view AKTrail's profile Legend 360 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
13. Dec 4, 2007 1:43 AM in response to: lesliek
quote:<HR>Originally posted by L Master:
I'm training with the long term goal of doing the pikes peak ascent (avg grade 12 degrees). For hill work should I work at hills this grade or also include less steep hills?<HR>

I think Pikes Peak is closer to 12% rather than 12 degrees - about 7xxx ft in 13.x mi. In general, I would probably work on hills that steep or steeper, since, iirc, from the descriptions there's stair-like sections that are steeper than the average trail. (I'm assuming you've looked at Matt Carpenter's web pages on Pike's Peak and descriptions of the course. www.skyrunner.com)[/URL" target="_blank"> And, if you can, that long - at least time wise. Most people would probably have trouble finding hills with that long a climb, so you might want to break it into smaller segments - like 2-3000ft and do that a couple times. I might add these are the situations when I will do a hill repetitively (not a true "repeat" at those efforts). And if you're planning on hiking parts, practice hiking and transitions.

The good news about Pikes Peak is that you can set it up on a tm if you lack big enough hills. I'm not sure if there's any pgms simulating that profile or not since there is some variation. (Our local mtn races are usually 20-30% slopes on average with steeper pitches in the 50% range. Stepmills or high-end tm are needed for these. I don't do local mtn races.)

If 12% is just steep enough that you have trouble running it, and your intention is to run the race, you could consider working on an easier slope (say 8-10%) so you can develop some endurance running at something almost as steep. Then over time build it up to 13-14% as you can handle it. I think that works better than slogging at the steeper slopes. If you're intention is to finish using running and hiking (like most), I'd just work on the steeper stuff.

Most of the "big hills" I use are generally in the 1000-3000ft vertical range and any that I do repetitively are in the 700-2200ft range - at least so far. 10% slopes are runnable, the 20-40% big slopes get power hiked and run down.
Click to view AKTrail's profile Legend 360 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
14. Dec 4, 2007 2:18 AM in response to: lesliek
quote:<HR>Originally posted by flobaby:
What an illuminating post, especially this bit above. I've been avoiding hill work, instead wasting lots of time messing around with elevation maps and figuring out grades to find the exact right hill to do repeats on - when all I really need to do is get my butt out there on a hill...any hill! Thanks for this gem of common sense.
<HR>

You have no idea how long I struggled with finding the right hills to mimic another's training (like the Lydiard rectangle where you run up, across the flats, down gentler slope, then run hard on flats then up, repeat). Then I realized that had absolutely nothing to do with any of my race configurations.

I still spend a lot of time with maps for new courses figuring out dimensions of the longest and/or steepest climbs / descents, total climbs / descents, etc, then trying to find something like that to train on. It's a challenge when the climbs are extended 5% slopes - something we just don't have locally. During breakup, we'll start using some of the roads to ski areas that are about 10%, but have to wait until June to find some 5% slopes.

But, yea, for the smaller hills, it's easier to just go by feel since maps aren't that accurate anyway - at least around here.