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15 Replies Last post: Dec 6, 2007 8:06 PM by dg12002   1 2 Previous Next
Click to view mrinertia's profile Legend 1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
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Dec 5, 2007 5:44 AM

Stride analysis

Went for a gorgeous run this morning and had the honor of putting the first set of footprints in a light snow covering. On the way back in from my out and back, I looked at my footprints.

First off, they were in pretty much a single file line, which kinda surprised me. I had just sorta assumed that they would be almost shoulder width apart like they are when I am walking. I would guess that a "single file" stride would be the way to go, but can't really explain why I think that.

I'm slightly duckfooted; my toes point outwards a bit. Normal? Not? Anything that I should address or is it not big deal either way?

Did a pickup, just to see how it affected my stride. I was surprised that it didn't. Footprints were no further apart or closwer together. Toes still pointed outward about the same amount.
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1. Dec 5, 2007 7:06 AM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
Interesting thoughts re the single file stride, as well as the speed thing. Haven't had any snow here for me to run through yet (it was all cleared up from the weekend by the time I went out on Monday), but I'll try the same experiment next time I get the chance. I tend to think my stride gets longer as I go faster, because I know I'm concentrating on stretching out rather than increasing pace alone. But maybe I'll be proven wrong as well! Thanks!

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....still breathing...

E.
Click to view figbash's profile Legend 617 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
2. Dec 5, 2007 8:31 AM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
Your feet need to land under your center of gravity when you run or you would fly off the road sideways. Try standing on one foot and see where your foot needs to be.

The fact that your feet splay outward a bit means that you overpronate slightly. That's pretty normal but if it gives you trouble (knee pain) you may need some inner arch support from an insert or a stability shoe to keep your feet from rolling in too much when you land.

Tom

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Click to view ATLrunner's profile Pro 159 posts since
Sep 4, 2007
4. Dec 5, 2007 8:56 AM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
Sounds to me like you've got a pretty normal stride. As figbash says, your foot needs to be more or less directly under your center of mass to maintain balance. Try standing still on one foot. You'll notice that you naturally shift your weight so that your foot is directly underneath you.
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
5. Dec 5, 2007 9:10 AM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
quote:<HR>Originally posted by mrinertia:
Went for a gorgeous run this morning and had the honor of putting the first set of footprints in a light snow covering. On the way back in from my out and back, I looked at my footprints.

First off, they were in pretty much a single file line, which kinda surprised me. I had just sorta assumed that they would be almost shoulder width apart like they are when I am walking. I would guess that a "single file" stride would be the way to go, but can't really explain why I think that.

I'm slightly duckfooted; my toes point outwards a bit. Normal? Not? Anything that I should address or is it not big deal either way?

Did a pickup, just to see how it affected my stride. I was surprised that it didn't. Footprints were no further apart or closwer together. Toes still pointed outward about the same amount.
<HR>


As Figbash said, when you try to stand on one foot, your foot comes directly under the Center of Gravity. That's where you should land. This is actually an interesting observation because this is pretty much the reason why we all pronate more or less. Our legs come out from the "outside" the C of G (hip width) and it lands toward the middle lane; this means some sort of torque would be created as you land; hense your foot rolling inward slightly. You see, pronation is a natural movement; it's just a matter of degree--some pronate more than others depending on various reasons.

I just saw another post done by Figbash and I like what he has to say. However, I don't quite agree with this pronation deal. Most people will have their footprint with the toes pointing slightly outward because (a) even though all the toes are supposed to "grip" the ground as you "kick off"; big toe is the main force; in other words, the ideal foot plant is the straight line from the center of your heel and the big toe aligns the direction of your run and this puts your foot pointing very slightly outward; and (b) particularly if you run somewhat tip-toe (mid-foot landing), the extra torque will be created because your leg is attached to the back of your foot (some may call this "ankle" ;o)) and it's pushed forward as we land because of the momentum. Because we usually land, if you land more or less mid-foot, outside the ball of your foot due to the leg coming from the outside of C of G (gee, am I making sense at all???), the torque would push the heel inward slightly, causing the foot to "point out"... Okay, I'm getting confused myself. The point is; landing on one line is normal and actually probably a good thing. Feet pointing outward is normal as well. It's very good that you're paying attention to those things. That observation habbit will pay off someday (someday...! ;o)).

Now, however... There's a school of thinking nowadays, particularly among sprinters and sprinting coaches, that so-called "two-line" running is a better technique. This means you will land directly under...well, let me think about how to phrase this... So left foot would land directly under where left leg comes out from and right foot lands directly under where right leg is attached to the hip bone. If you check the footplant of elite sprinters of today, they would make two lines. Japanese sprinters are big on this and I've got a half a dozen books on this topic (from Japan) but I haven't quite grasped this yet. You can attend any sprinting seminar today and I'm sure you'll hear about this. How this would actually be applied to distance running, I'm not sure. This is my next to-do list, I guess...
Click to view figbash's profile Legend 617 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
7. Dec 5, 2007 11:14 AM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
quote:<HR>Originally posted by mrinertia:
Interesting. I've been running for almost two years and have never run in anything except neutral cushioned shoes or performance trainers - injury free.

<HR>


As long as your mileage is low, it shouldn't be a problem. The only time I've ever had any injury issues was when I got into the 40-50 mile per week range during marathon training. Little issues tend to grow into big problems as your mileage increases.

Tom

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Click to view bigapplepie's profile We're Not Worthy 2,636 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
9. Dec 5, 2007 1:22 PM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
I practice running along the lane markings in Central Park. I seem to run better and get fewer injuries when I put one foot in front of the other. Maybe it makes me take shorter strides.
Click to view dg12002's profile Legend 622 posts since
Aug 26, 2003
10. Dec 5, 2007 2:43 PM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
My ultra friends told me that it could years if not a decade to retrain your waist on down to run on minimal shoes. I think the Nike Free idea which we all know is nothing new, at least reignited the minimalist shoe idea.

I worked my way (weigh) down from motion control shoes, thru stability and have been running neutral shoes for 5 yrs.. I have worked on alignment by looking mirrors when on the mill or as I show my children their form on video in slomo.

I hope Nobby talks to us about these issues as they are important and many of us want to know. Many of us need many answers along these lines. So much is talked about running economy and these are the ones which rubber meets the road.
Click to view figbash's profile Legend 617 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
11. Dec 5, 2007 2:53 PM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
quote:<HR>Originally posted by mrinertia:
I peaked at 50 for my first marathon. In the process of rebuilding to mid 40s by the end of the month. Training for second marathon starts mid Jan and I'd like to have a few weeks of 40-45 under my belt when I start that. Looking to peak in mid 60s.

<HR>


Sounds like you are good to go.

Tom

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Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
12. Dec 6, 2007 12:21 PM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
Mrinertia:

I'm heading down to Houston tomorrow with Lorraine Moller and Peter Snell. For the introduction, I was putting the footage of Snell together and noticed he was quite a bit pigeon toed. Frank Shorter was somewhat pigeon toed as well. Of course, this does not mean they are bad or anything (I guess this just means they have "pigeon toe gene" bcause it's determined by pre-determined genetics!?)... The examples of other extreme would be Bill Rodgers and Steve Cram. They are both extreme tip-toe runners; Crammy was quite obvious; there's a great picture of Coe, Cram and other British runner in Coe/Martin book. Cram was criticized (or simply analized) in this particular photo with how extremely twisted his support leg is. This is mainly because he lands on the lateral side of his foot; just where the pinky toe is attached to the foot. Moreover, he really reaches out in front of him as he lands and this puts a lot of torque on his foot and the heel would swing way inward.

This is actually a very good practice. I'm quite a bit bow-legged and I know my footprint is usually pointing outward. But when we filmed Lydiard hill training and there was a shot of me doing Steep Hill Running and we filmed me from the back (what a sight... We refilmed that scene because I didn't want to give the wrong impression--you need to consciously bring your knees straight foward and upward. And these things, you woudln't know until you see yourself filmed like this, or to have someone with the experienced eyes to critique.

Now, there are certain ristrictions such as structure of your legs/hips. Lie down on you back and let your legs relax and see where your feet point. My left foot twist way out further than my left. There must be some structural thing that allows my left foot to go further out. Now, this could be because of my bone structure or could be muscle structure. If it's the latter, you can correct it more. But if former, it might be a bit difficult. Of course, this does NOT mean at all that you will not going to achieve the best you can (unlike some genetic warshippers might think otherwise). There are many examples that things like this does not mean that much. It might simply mean that could put some strain on you and you might have to work 0.5% more than otherwise but it won't restrict you from being the best you can. But it really won't hurt to evaluate your form like you just did. Don't want to be overly concerned with such things; sometimes some people get so into some minute things that they forget that what really makes a difference is just to get out and run day in day out. Well, you know what (or who) I'm talking about! ;o)
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
13. Dec 6, 2007 12:25 PM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
quote:<HR>Originally posted by figbash:
As long as your mileage is low, it shouldn't be a problem. The only time I've ever had any injury issues was when I got into the 40-50 mile per week range during marathon training. Little issues tend to grow into big problems as your mileage increases.

Tom

<HR>


Figbash:

I'm a bit disappointed with this comment of yours. High mileage doesn't cause injuries. More often than not, it's the ill-fitted shoes. As for my own experience, as I increased my milege (or over all duration or time of my running) increased, and as I move more toward minimalist shoes; the less my Achilles hurt. I've been bothered by this almost for the last 10 years and I'm now running probably more than any other time in the last 15 years.
Click to view figbash's profile Legend 617 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
14. Dec 6, 2007 7:28 PM in response to: mrinertia
Re: Stride analysis
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nobby:
Figbash:

I'm a bit disappointed with this comment of yours. High mileage doesn't cause injuries. More often than not, it's the ill-fitted shoes. As for my own experience, as I increased my milege (or over all duration or time of my running) increased, and as I move more toward minimalist shoes; the less my Achilles hurt. I've been bothered by this almost for the last 10 years and I'm now running probably more than any other time in the last 15 years.
<HR>


No need to be disappointed.

My point was that overpronation, if severe enough or if not corrected can lead to injury with increased mileage.

Tom

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