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Click to view maryt091's profile Legend 806 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
330. Dec 26, 2007 3:50 AM in response to: Paul828

Paul828

Midrace instructions can include traffic warnings or warnings about 2 races splitting and it is important that one race not interfere with another. Slower runners getting in the way of faster runners from another race coming up from behind can be a real problem if they don't keep to their side of the street, for example. Easy to have multiple races on the same course when runners are aware - not so easy when ears are blocked and they don't hear or can hear but are paying atention only to their music. Also on open courses, there is often only one place where runners are supposed to cross the street to make a turn. If they stay on the wrong side and try to pass later in traffic, that can be a big problem. Interfering with car traffic flow can get races canceled. Same problems only worse at finish lines - people not crossing the street where there are volunteers or police to direct them, trying to go into wrong chutes, passing in line - just being unaware of what's going on and not paying attention to volunteers because they are paying attention to their music instead.

The problems I have seen or experienced myself did not involve people trying to pass the oblivious in headphones, so much as being caused by runners going about the same speed, with the headphone wearer not going with the flow of the race: a runner lassooing another runner with her dangling iPod cord, someone just ahead being startled by a runner passing close and moving abruptly into the path of other runners causing them to stop short in front of me, another causing a backup trying to backtrack to a missed turn, the headphone wearer running straight ahead into my heel not realizing everyone was slowing down for a sharp turn, etc etc. So, just moving up wouldn't help, although I would love to be in front of the pack where headphones are few, just can't do that now.

Click to view farleyz's profile Rookie 3 posts since
Oct 9, 2007
331. Dec 26, 2007 7:40 AM in response to: Active Toby

I've been reading this "discussion" and find it very humorous. The pithy comments, petty name calling, and all the self righteousness is also rather sad.

The main issue is responsibility. Responsibility for yourself and to others (basic courtesy).

Some people find pleasure in running to music, podcasts, or whatever, while other "purists" don't. It's pretty simple.

Contrary to the arguments of some, there are those that train and run events with Ipods and maintain the volume at a low enough level that they can hear what is going on around them. These are the same people that will pull over to the side (out of the way) if they need to slow down, walk, or tie a shoe. These are the same people that will not block other runners access to water stations or act like the post race food provided is an all you can eat family buffet.

There are the "purists" that will run side by side with 4 other members of their running club while blocking the path of those that would like to pass. There are those that seemingly act like they own the road. There are the "purists" feel they are entitled to the third or fourth post race bagel while there are a few thousand finishers yet to arrive.

I've run in many events and have completed events while using headphones and without. I've seen both ends of the spectrum.

The biggest problem is that there are a large number of people out there that don't know anything about courtesy, etiquette, or manners. The best thing we can do is to educate all runners on proper etiquette because it is obvious that their mothers didn't do a good enough job. Ipods and their users are not unique in this regard and this needs to be acknowledged.

The name calling and blaming gets no where. Although not knowing that is probably just another symptom of a lack of proper parenting.


See ya'll in Boston - Ipod wearers and all!

Click to view mccannjl's profile Rookie 4 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
332. Dec 26, 2007 9:46 AM in response to: farleyz

farleyz, you make so much sense!

if people want to ban something, please, please ban inane cellphone use! talk about being distracted! and good point about the deaf community--are they to be banned from all races?

Also, there are headphones available now that allow the user to hear outside noise, called AirDrives:

http://www.freeyourears.net/

Click to view NHSenior's profile Legend 388 posts since
Nov 23, 2007
333. Dec 26, 2007 10:43 AM in response to: mccannjl
<<<<<and good point about the deaf community--are they to be banned from all races?

Folks, it isn't just about hearing, it's about distraction, though many of you just continue to ignore that fact. Hearing is just a small part of the issue.

I don't know about you but in my many years of observation I found deaf people to be Waaaaaaay more attuned to their surroundings and what is going on than many who can hear. They are most often quite aware using their other senses. It's true they can't hear, but in many danger situation all those around them are giving very loud non-sound queues that something is up.

You and I would be slow to pick up on the body language of a crowd, but many of the deaf are wired into noticing the queues, BECAUSE that is how THEY have to live their whole life. Or didn't that occur to you all.

Click to view niemsco's profile Community Moderator 189 posts since
Sep 24, 2007
334. Dec 26, 2007 11:05 AM in response to: reyramos
I had a very similar experience to you. I do train with an ipod for long runs and some tempo work, but I never race or do intervals with it. However, I use to a few years ago. I stopped because I was going to train for Ironman, and there you just don't wear them, it is against the rules and I didn't feel like racking up penalty minutes. So I ran my first marathon a few years ago without the iPOD and I immediately set a PR by 15 minutes. I set PRs at many other races without the ipod and my speed work was much better. I quickly realized that it was because you actually concentrate much better on your pace and what needs to be done, I could focus and maintain my pace much better in the late stages of the race. Getting lost in the music threw my pace off ever so slightly which can end up to be a lot of time in long race... But that's me... And I have to say I do enjoy races much more without them, and it was the people cheering that got me through Ironman feeling pretty good. But I love my tunes and will continue to train with the ipod.

I still run non-triathlon marathons and other distances and what I've learned is there are enough idiots out there ipod or no ipod. Its a matter of etiquette some people lack period. Frankly if you want to wear them go ahead, I see this as a silly rule to enforce in road races, if someone is going to get in the way of someone, they will do it with or without the ipod. I am a bit disappointed in this purist view, you don't own the road.
Click to view ArmyNurse's profile Amateur 28 posts since
Jul 9, 2007
335. Dec 26, 2007 1:32 PM in response to: Active Toby

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why is this an issue???????????? The last time I checked, we were living in a FREE country!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't care if someone is using an IPOD while running, wearing a costume, talking to their buddy, or running "butt naked" as long as they aren't bothering me, getting in my way, and not telling me that I can't run without my IPOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If U choose not to run with an IPOD, etc then that's your business. I have a playlist of running mantras that help me to keep running when I feel like I can't go no further. I run with it when I'm training and during races. If a particular racing event doesn't want my participation because I choose to listen to my IPOD then screw them!!!!!! It's their loss, not mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree with one of the other posts. Next, people will be discriminating against those who have physical handicaps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I lost alot of my freedom for the 13 months I served in Iraq and I'm not about to come home and be told that I can't run without my IPOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Especially since U have people running their mouths on their cellphones during races (and driving) which is more of a distraction. By the way, how is an IPOD distracting 2 other runners when the only person who can hear the music is the one listening 2 it???????? Don't confuse a lack of home training (e.g. slow runners on the wrong side of the street who refuse to move over) on the part of some by taking away the freedom of others! Just my two cents worth!............ARMY NURSE (HOOAH!!)

Click to view johnblack's profile Rookie 1 posts since
Sep 30, 2007
336. Dec 26, 2007 4:20 PM in response to: Active Toby

I don't wear an ipod or any MP3 when I run (except on a treadmill) because I enjoy talking to fellow runners and spectators and volunteers. However, that's the choice I make. If I opted to wear an ipod during a race, I should be allowed. Most runners are sensible and aware of their surroundings, so wearing music doesn't effect their safety. I've run my share of races during the last several years and I have not seen nor heard of any runner being injured or winning any races because they wore an MP3 player. My wife wears an ipod and only uses one ear phone so she can hear her surroundings. I just feel that running gives you the freedom to do what you want, and if your out there beating the trail, then good on you whether you choose to wear music or not. Bottom line, it should be a personal choice.
Click to view maryt091's profile Legend 806 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
337. Dec 26, 2007 4:27 PM in response to: ArmyNurse

Hello army nurse. You don't need to shout, I'll answer your question.

Wearing headphones can be distracting to others because many headphone wearers don't pay attention to what they are doing, don't go with the flow of the race, don't pay attention to race instructions, etc. You don't have to actually make contact to disrupt another runner's race. Going with the flow of your music rather than going with the flow of a crowded race really can bother other runners who do want to able to focus on the race and not have to focus on trying to avoid headphone wearing runners who are oblivious to what's going on around them. I've also seen headphone wearers get in the wrong chutes or pass in chutes or go the wrong way at race splits and need to backtrack, not get out of the way of emergency vehicles until someone physically pushed them from the course, go straight when everyone else is slowing down for a turn and bump into people or change course suddenly and cause other people to stop short. I even saw one headphone wearer lasso another runner with her dangling cord - now if that's not distracting, I don't what you would call it.

I hope that helps to explain why the USATF has banned headphones from the races they insure, and why more races are banning them and races like Grandma's confiscated them and disqualified runners who used them. As someone else mentioned, they have long been banned in triathlons, and the runners and cyclists survive without them quite well. Many if not most actually find they enjoy the race more and run better if they race without headphones and it certainly makes it a lot easier for the organizers and the volunteers as well as the other runners if headphones are left for training runs and not for races.

Click to view ArmyNurse's profile Amateur 28 posts since
Jul 9, 2007
338. Dec 26, 2007 5:39 PM in response to: maryt091

Again, U are talking about a minority not the majority! Some of us do have manners and common sense. I still believe that everyone should be responsible for themselves and their actions. There are some of us who are able to race with our IPOD'S without interfering with others. Let us be and stop trying to infringe upon our freedom to listen to music as we run. With obesity running rampant in our country, why not celebrate the fact that there are people out there running instead of discouraging people who have a greater motivation to run great distances because music helps them to do that.

This is sooooooooooo petty and I will continue to shout for what I believe in!!!!!!!!!

Click to view Nancy Jeffrey's profile Rookie 1 posts since
Oct 4, 2007
339. Dec 26, 2007 6:03 PM in response to: Active Toby
Let each runner decide. If you're running with the big boys and girls to win the race, common sense says don't use the IPOD. Otherwise, let the rest of us do what we want to do. If you want to talk to people, do it. If you want to listen to music do it. On the 5Ks I never use an IPOD. On longer races, I use it when I need a pick me up. I've almost ran over more people talking to others & not paying attention than those using IPODs. Should we outlaw talking during races??
Click to view Maple Syrup's profile Amateur 13 posts since
Dec 10, 2007
340. Dec 26, 2007 11:06 PM in response to: NHSenior

I would like to know how Ipods are a distraction so much. I have read comments about people being stepped on, startling an Ipod wearer that moved into another racer and caused an accident, went off course because they did not hear instructions. This has to do with ignorance as many non-Ipod users do the exact same thing. People Look at their watches to check split times, high fiving the crowd and not paying attention, looking to get their gu or gel out and are concentrated on something else besides the race. Everything now has to do with race effiecency and for entertainment. Just as people choose to wear an Ipod, others choose to run in packs to help pace, wear heart rate monitors with the GPS watch to see what their last mile was, etc. I have worn an Ipod and not worn one in many races. I see more neglect for others that just singling out the Ipod users.

I still hear personal opinions, which is fine, by both sides but no one has given the cons or distractions......of using an Ipod. I have heard of assumptions, which are not facts and I have heard of very funny comments, like the lasso of the Ipod cord......really??!! Lets talk about why it is a distraction, how it affects most races, runners, volunteers (which I have a tough time with) and Ipod use in general. I have not heard of too many people getting hit by cars or causing a top runner to miss their PR or award because of a person wearing an Ipod. Those discussions never come up when they announce the awards.

I could really care less on wearing one or not, that is my choice. I do wear one when I am doing a fun run or a leisure run and I do not wear one when I want to compete. I do however, have seen both Ipod and non-Ipod use cause the same amount of problems by just not paying attention.

Click to view maryt091's profile Legend 806 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
341. Dec 27, 2007 4:26 AM in response to: Maple Syrup

Maple Syrup

Sure, you may see some distracted behavior for a brief moment from non-iPod wearers, but it's not anywhere near in the same amount as you get with those wearing headphones or for as long. I have been at over 1000 races, both as a runner and on the other side as a volunteer, and by far the majority of problems I have seen caused are by those who run with headphones. It's not even close. There is just no comparison with the number of issues caused by distracted headphone wearers compared to the headphone-free. I have had several problems personally including a couple of injuries caused by headphone wearers - never had a single serious problem with the headphone-free.

You said "Lets talk about why it is a distraction, how it affects most races, runners, volunteers (which I have a tough time with) and Ipod use in general. I have not heard of too many people getting hit by cars or causing a top runner to miss their PR or award because of a person wearing an Ipod. Those discussions never come up when they announce the awards."

Seems to me most of that has all already been discussed. The why it is a distraction is easy if you are talking about the headphone wearers and why they are distracted. Isn't that the whole point of why some wear them? You zone out to the beat of your favorite tune, you are not as aware of what is going on around you, even if you can hear. It makes you slower to react if you are running to the beat of your tunes and not to the flow of the race, makes you less likely to realize the whole pack is slowing down for a sharp turn, etc. and slower to make the change in your own pace, makes you slower to react to what you should easily be able to see, and that doesn't even address the hearing issue.

As to why it is a distraction for others, I have already addressed that, but if you want it again, no problem. It affects the volunteeers when they have to chase after a runner who goes off course, or continually need to shout when iPod wearers ask "What did you say" IF they are aware enough to realize they didn't hear a mid-race instruction. I've been at a number of races where there are multiple races, so if you don't get everyone going the right way, it can interfere with faster runners from the second race. It's also not fun to have an oblivious runner glare at you when you try to stop them from passing in a chute because they weren't paying attention to instructions or to have those who were paying attention complain because the results are off because you couldn't keep all the headphone wearers from cutting in line. The headphone -free just don't cause the same number of problems - not even close. And if the headphone-free are in the wrong place, it's easy to get their attention and get them back on track. When an iPod user doesn't get out of the way of a car coming up from behind, and/or runs on the wrong side of a street that is reserved for traffic, because they don't listen to race instructions or are unaware of what's going on around them (I've seen that more than once) , that can afffect the whole race if the drivers complain. You don't need to have a driver actually hit a runner to have a problem. I've seen races cancelled because of resident's complaints - and the headphone wearers might be totally unaware any incidents involving them have even occurred. Same thing with stopping short or abruptly changing direction causing other runners behind them to need to adjust their own pace. I'm sure most of the time, the iPod users have no clue they have disrupted other runners' races or focus.

As for preventing a PR or an award, yes that can happen. I've run in several races myself that are age-graded and also on teams where every runner's time is added to the total, so my being slowed by a headphone wearer can impact the whole team. A slower but older runner like myself may be competing for age-graded points with someone younger farther up in the pack where headphone inerference is minimal. When someone stops short in front of me or abruptly changes direction or runs into my heels because they are more aware of running to the beat of their music than paying attention to their surroundings, it interferes with my race and my focus and can make the difference in how I place in my club or team scoring. Also, I have heard multiple complaints from those at races where a shorter race goes off first (Newburport 10 miler and 5K for example) and those slower runners in the 5K can interfere if they have not moved over to the correct side of the street to let the faster runners through. Guess who are the ones that don't get out of the way - the headphone users of course.

Do you really think that race officials or other runners would complain about headphone/earbud use if it were NOT a problem? I certainly don't care what you do when you run so long as it doesn't interfere with my race - either as a racer or as a volunteer. Unfortunately, in my experience headphone use by other runners certainly DOES interfere both with my ability to run my best race and with my ability to run the race on the volunteer side. The problems I have seen caused are both more serious and much MUCH more numerous by headphone/iPod users than the headphone-free. That's why I care.

Click to view GNO2006's profile Rookie 1 posts since
Dec 27, 2007
342. Dec 27, 2007 4:27 AM in response to: Active Toby

it's a difficult area -- however, I think it mainly comes down to personal choice and responsibility. In some events, particularly those with very large fields, the simple crowd numbers makes it dangerous (to self and to others) to be distracted in any way. But, once out of the starting crush, especially for those of us who are not as fast as some, cruising to music makes the run more enjoyable.

Where organisers want to make it a condition of entry to an event, then like any other condition, paying the fee binds us to those conditions. Where it is not a condition of the event, then I'll wear mine as noted above, and accept the responsibility to look out for myself and my fellow runners.

I wear my iPod when running in my local area, and generally put it on after a few kms, once the main crush is out of the way. I also always remove it in the last couple of kms so that I can hear the crowds!

I've run all over the world, and in most places wearing an iPod is not really a big deal (except as I said, at the start where there are big fields). Some folks don't like to hear music and run, I respect that, and good for them. But I do and am willing to take the responsibility for doing so. Like most things, it does come down to responsibility and judgement.

Click to view NHSenior's profile Legend 388 posts since
Nov 23, 2007
343. Dec 27, 2007 7:14 AM in response to: GNO2006
<<<< Like most things, it does come down to responsibility and judgement.


And WHAT in the "REAL" world of a crowd of thousands does that mean. How is what you've said helpful?

Does it mean that because you said it, people are suddenly going to magically change the way they think and act.

The fact is that way too many people are not responsible and do not show good judgement. The race directors have a responsibility to make up for lack of responsibility and poor judgement. And while there are other non-headset sources of poor judgement, they are few in comparison to the number of highly distracted headset users.

HELLO, is anybody HOME????

I'll ask this yet again because not one person in all these hundreds of messages has suggested a logical reason why the race directors would engage in banning headphones if they were not a problem.

I CHALLENGE any of you to answer that. Not a smart a$$ed answer but a good logical reason why they would do such thing when it is not in the best interest of attracting people to the race. It is a source of grief for race directors and many are being irresponsible by ignoring it.

Come on all you ever so bright rocket scientists who act like you have it all figured out, why would they do it.

Most race directors don't know each other.
There are no race director forums.
There is no weekly race director newspaper or magazine.

Yet race directors are engaging in something that seems to bring them nothing but trouble, there has to be a reason, WHAT IS IT?

Edited to add:

And BTW, Army Nurse. Thank you for your service and for what you do. Most of these twits on here don't have to backbone to even think about helping out their country or their fellow citizens. However, please stick to what you are trained in knowing about and let the race directors handle and worry about what they do. Your pay for what you do may be crappy, but almost all race directors get no pay at all.

Click to view farleyz's profile Rookie 3 posts since
Oct 9, 2007