Yesterday (Wed.):
AM: 4 easy, mostly on trails
PM: 6 easy on trails (postponed a workout, due to heat and fatigue)

Today:
5 X one mile w/ 400j @ CV (10K) pace
4 X 25 second hills
10 miles total with warmup and cooldown

Intervals, if done right, stimulate the ability to tolerate lactic acid (which has now been identified as a fuel when racing at VO2 max). I believe that only a very small part of speed work needs to be that hard. I hated speed work for the most part but at times did it anyway. I took Jim's approach. I may have been running close to a 5 minute pace for 10K but the speed work that I tolerated best was often closer to 10 mile pace. If I had gone out and run 5-6 x 1 mile at 5 flat (a workout I could have done) it would have broken me down. Also the only thing it told me was that I could run 6 x 1 mile in 5 minutes average. It didn't tell me anything about what I could race a specific distance at.

Time trials (so popular a workout on this posting..gasp) told me much more.

If I could run 2/3rds of the distance at pace in a trail either run alone of with a small group of other runners, not in a race, then I had a chance to run my goal race at that pace. When I first broke 15 minutes for 3 miles, I had run a 9:58 two mile trial with another runner the week before. On race day I came through two miles at 9:55 and kept going. This was when 3 mile races were the norm. 5K came later.

Otherwise, I like Jim's approach. Lay off the all out stuff and leave something for race day. I would rather add in 10 mpw then do regular VO2max intervals that tear me up. The time trials tell me if my training is working out.

Raider (A truly caring individual from the Pacific Northwest).

PS,

I feel your pain Ribs. I don't know what you do for work but the good thing is you get around and the bad thing is that you get around to some God awful places.

Jim

I have read posts and articles by Tinman. He seems to know running and training. I think the two guys I am most impressed with are he and Hadd.

If I wanted to run more miles and return to racing, I would follow their advice but I would still be my own coach. Bowerman once told me that I was uncoachable (while he was giving me some more advice). Because I knew him, he was always kind enough, in his gruff way, to ask me how my running was going and what my training was like.

He always recommended that I do less and make sure I was recovering. I think this kept me from going to 100 mpw. His favorite question about workouts was "Why did you do that?" I have been asking myself that same question ever since. I believe runners who are in training should always understand why they are doing a specific workout.

Raider

I'm sure Daniels, Pfitzinger, et al. are great guys--I ran on the high school cross country team with Pfitzinger--but I can't fathom the concept of looking in a book to see "what Daniels says I should do today." How the f--- does Daniels know what I should do? He doesn't know me. He doesn't know my capacity, racing history, training history, injury history, strengths, weaknesses, will to succeed, or the time I have available. He doesn't know how I feel today. Given the amount of information Daniels has about me, which is very little, why should I consult Daniels--and I don't mean to single him out--about my workout today? At best, all Daniels can say is, "Well, these kinds of workouts have been useful for some people in the past. You might want to look at them and see if you can use any of these ideas."

Dark Horse

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I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

Okay, I can't let this discussion go without providing a Devil's Advocate.

It is common sense that no book can know what a particular runner is feeling on a particular day. And they can't know what type of runner someone may be - the amount of talent/genetics they may possess, are they a speed vs. strength runner, do they have a disciplined personality conducive to training, etc. So it might be easy to discount the whole concept of a "generic" training plan out of hand just because of that.

But for someone like me, when I started running, I knew little about what running, training, and racing was all about. I also knew that I'd run better and progress better if I either listened to a coach or bought a book. (I actually did both).

What these pre-packaged training books/plans provide is a sensible, well thought out plan, written by someone who generally understands running and training and knows of what they write. Many of these are acknowledged experts in the field and many have raced successfully themselves.

But ... and I think the postings I've read here always miss this point ... every book/training plan I've seen advocates adjusting them for your personal life/needs and to rest/recover whenever your body tells you it needs it.

Those of you with many years of training and racing experience know yourself and know what works for you. New runners may not and can gain much from the knowledge of these experts.

If someone using a Pfitz plan (for example) runs that 6x1200 meter interval workout that is "planned for today" when every part of their being is whispering for them to chill out - well they're not listening - to either themselves nor the book.

I generally agree with you for those having the experience and knowledge and know what they are doing. I disagree with you discounting the plans out of hand when the basic running knowledge is not known to the reader/trainer.

I'm just about there, knowledge-wise by the way.

Bill

PS: I ran the ultimate recovery run today - Zero miles in Zero minutes because I listened to the whispers.

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Bill's Profile[/URL" target="_blank">

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Horse:
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For example, this week I ran 7 @ 7:50, 7 @ 7:53, and 6 @ 7:42. I ran these workouts to build leg strength, wind, and tolerance for discomfort. All three runs were progression runs to some extent, which I like to do because they simulate the increased stress toward the end of a race. If you can do it in training, you can do it in a race. My total mileage was 20, and I am trying to solidify that weekly base before I make another increase. I ran only three times because I have found from experience I need the recovery time or I get injured. On my non-running days, I did strength exercises, including hip exercises because I have traditionally had pain there.

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You can take this kind of approach, running all your daily runs at what is a quick pace for you, possibly with good results. However, if you try to mix it with other speed workouts, e.g. intervals on the track and/or racing you are playing with fire.

" If you can do it in training, you can do it in a race. "

Maybe so, but this is where I'm as obstinate as you. You can consistently improve in races, imo, and run only a tiny fraction of your workouts at 5k pace or faster. You don't have to race your training. I'm like a broken record on this, I know, but I'm sure that it's true. This is been a real revelation for me these past couple years. If I could go back to 15-20 years ago I would do it the new way. I would have hammered less, run many more miles, and raced faster. Although there will never be a way to prove it, it is something I strongly believe.

If you want to be a real contrarian, which is a role you seem to enjoy, try getting away from this idea that you have to kill yourself in workouts to race faster. That's what everyone thinks. You're just following along. This doesn't mean *ussy footin' through them either. It means doing them week in and week out, rain or shine, and at a strong enough pace to know you've done something. There's a cumulative affect, that if you aren't careful can wear you down, even though it might seem easy at first.

In case you missed it, XC guy just got his sub-20, which I believe was his first in quite a long time (?) doing it this way. And I'd bet money that some faster ones will follow. Isn't this a goal of yours?

" On my non-running days, I did strength exercises, including hip exercises because I have traditionally had pain there."

Hips are one of my vulnerable areas too. Running on grass has made a huge difference but I'd never discourage anyone from doing exercises as you are. I hate cross training, which is nothing to brag about. It's also hard to find a good stretch of grass to run on.

Fred,

If you were racing regularly, would you still hammer workouts between them?

Also, the other day you said you were going to rest. Does that mean just run slow, or do you actually take some days off?