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2459 Views 17 Replies Latest reply: Dec 28, 2007 7:21 AM by ussoccer 1 2 Previous Next
Active Fred Rookie 11 posts since
Dec 22, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Dec 24, 2007 6:45 PM

Trainer tricks

Here's the same workout at the start and end of a 4 week cycle, 4 x 10 minutes, 5 mins recovery.  I used the Tacx and had the ergo set to provide a steady wattage regardless of RPM's.  At the start of the month, here's what the heart rate looked like:

 

Now, at the end of the cycle, same workout, but 10 watts higher resistence, note how the body has adapted to the higher workload and is able to handle it better:

 

By the end of the winter cycle, you are doing the same wattage as a straight block for 40 minutes, cool eh?

  • TriAndStopMe Rookie 30 posts since
    Sep 27, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Dec 26, 2007 7:58 PM (in response to Active Fred)
    Re: Trainer tricks

     

    Very cool indeed...

     

     

    One question though... are you jroden?  Or do you two just have all the same equipment, training philosphies, and new-found love of yoga?

     

     

  • pcsronbo006 Legend 1,323 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Dec 27, 2007 3:52 AM (in response to TriAndStopMe)
    Re: Trainer tricks

    Active Fred is the pretend Jroden. The one who isn't quite as cool nor as fast.

     

    The real Jroden will come out to play this summer assuming Fred spends enough time on his trainer. Which is sounds like he is

  • Active Ingredient Rookie 9 posts since
    Dec 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Dec 27, 2007 4:53 AM (in response to Active Fred)
    Re: Trainer tricks

     

    Dear Mr. "PCSRONBO":

     

     

    I am the Eastern Regional Manager for Active in charge of Avitar Abuse and Efficient Logins.  It has come to my attention that you have defaced one of our "stock" avitar images by adding a message related to "Rock" style music and inserted a contraband "Spliff" into said avitar's mouth.

     

     

    This practice will not be tolerated on our network.  You will need to cease and desist now.

     

     

    Thanks, and happy training:

     

     

    Active Joe

     

     

  • jkaiser20 Rookie 73 posts since
    Sep 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Dec 27, 2007 4:54 AM (in response to Active Ingredient)
    Re: Trainer tricks

    Definitely not as cool

  • Active Ingredient Rookie 9 posts since
    Dec 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Dec 27, 2007 5:14 AM (in response to jkaiser20)
    Re: Trainer tricks

     

    Someone has to take responsibility for the behavior on this forum now that "crazy1" has left for Myspace.

     

     

    In an unrelated observation, I was out for a ride in the slush yesterday and returned covered with road grime, wearing booties with tape holding them together, a ripped up riding jacket, a hat from the tractor supply store and big mittens for building a snowman.  If that makes me an expert on style, then the whole field of style needs some new staffing patterns.

     

     

  • jkaiser20 Rookie 73 posts since
    Sep 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Dec 27, 2007 5:21 AM (in response to Active Ingredient)
    Re: Trainer tricks

    Back to your original post, what is your recovery? Real easy spinning? And what is the difference in cadence between your recovery and interval?

  • Active Ingredient Rookie 9 posts since
    Dec 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Dec 27, 2007 5:59 AM (in response to jkaiser20)
    Re: Trainer tricks

     

    I don't think the recovery is important, I put the resistence at zero and spin down to 60 rpm's for a minute or so, then wind back up to 90, I may get off and fiddle with the dvd or run and get some water--all that matters at this point is doing the work sets and trying to raise the wattage (resistence on the trainer) over the period of the cycle.

     

     

    Next cycle, I take my ending wattage and add 10 more, then do a total of 8 reps (same total workload at 40 minutes) but the recovery drifts down over the 4 weeks, until the last week, when all of a sudden I'm doing - you guessed it 4 blocks of 10 minues with 5 minutes recovery, but at a wattage that is now 20 higher than what I started with at the beginning of December, and LO the heartrate ends up being about the same.

     

     

     

     

     

  • jkaiser20 Rookie 73 posts since
    Sep 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Dec 27, 2007 6:22 AM (in response to Active Ingredient)
    Re: Trainer tricks
    Active Ingredient wrote:

     

    Next cycle, I take my ending wattage and add 10 more, then do a total of 8 reps (same total workload at 40 minutes) but the recovery drifts down over the 4 weeks, until the last week, when all of a sudden I'm doing - you guessed it 4 blocks of 10 minues with 5 minutes recovery, but at a wattage that is now 20 higher than what I started with at the beginning of December, and LO the heartrate ends up being about the same.

     

     

    The real jroden would not have confused the piss out of me with his post.

     

    So for  the next +10 watt cycle, you start with 8 x 5 mins? Or do you mean 8 different workout sessions, each at 4x10min? Maybe I ate too much over the holiday and it is impacting my brain.

     

    I am trying to build up my work interval right now. If I work hard enough for 5 minutes to get my HR up above 145, I am toast midway through the second interval. I really struggle on the bike to get my HR up. I am riding wihtout power feedback, so HR is really all I have to go on, except for gearing and trainer setting. My legs tend to blow up. My only worry if I do not push hard enough to get the HR up, that I do not get the same workout. That is, 4x5min at 125 BPM doesn't do much, and I am better off doing what I can at the higher output. Something like 4x2min at 145+, then 4x 2.5min, etc. etc. or maybe 1x5, 1x4, 1x3, 1x2, 1x1 or something.

     

    My problem is I feel like I haven't done much (maybe just mentally) if I have only done 6 or 8 minutes at high effort.

     

    I've started wearing my HRM (Garmin 301) lately on the trainer. I am going to try this weekend to get a couple graphical examples of this to get some feedback on.

     

    -Jim

  • Active Ingredient Rookie 9 posts since
    Dec 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Dec 27, 2007 6:50 AM (in response to jkaiser20)
    Re: Trainer tricks

     

    Jim--I have a couple questions about what you describe.  First, I suspect you are neither old nor out of shape, so your low heartrates on the trainer may indicate your legs are weak, you may be tired from running a lot or may not be used to this sort of work.  My guess is perhaps the first two.

     

     

    I think you would be much faster next season if you built some strength starting right now for maybe 4-6 weeks.  To do this, you may have to structure your running to allow your to really work well on the trainer and not use it as an afterthought.  If you are thinking about getting a "workout" in terms of being in your "target heart rate" well get over it, that's for rookies looking to get in shape, you need to be comfortable allowing yourself to spin down between work sets and be confident that your time on the bike is worthwhile. 

     

     

    This time of year, I'm doing 3 key trainer workouts, the one outlined above (4 x 10 mins / 5 mins recovery-for this my HR is say 155-160, a bit below my AT, then a strength builing sessiosn with low rpms where hr is maybe 130-150 and finally a tempo workout of 40-70 mins with a hr at say 145)  all told, that gives me a total of about 120 mins of quaility a week, plus I ride outside and run on the other days.

     

     

    Here's a great once a week strength workout, you could even push to twice a week--12 times 1 min on 1 min off, work is at 50 rpm's heavy resistence, strict form on the aero bars, recovery is whatever.  HR should not be sky high.  At conclusion, rest 1 minute and do 25-45 mins of moderate resistence tempo at 80 rpm's, hr should be up there, but nowhere near your AT.

     

     

    You can replicate this workout outside by using a headwind or long gradual hill to provide resistence.

     

     

    In answer to your question, my next phase will be 8 x 5 minutes.  For this current session, I concluded with 4 x 10 mins at 370 phony Tacx watts, now I go to 8 x 5 mins at 380, recovery starts at 5 mins, then goes down to 1 min over the 4 weeks, finally at end I do 4 x 10 mins at 380, shazam, you pick up 20 watts over 10 weeks--can you put that to any use comes spring???

     

     

     

     

     

  • jkaiser20 Rookie 73 posts since
    Sep 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Dec 27, 2007 7:01 AM (in response to Active Ingredient)
    Re: Trainer tricks
    Active Ingredient wrote:

     

     

    Here's a great once a week strength workout, you could even push to twice a week--12 times 1 min on 1 min off, work is at 50 rpm's heavy resistence, strict form on the aero bars, recovery is whatever.  HR should not be sky high.  At conclusion, rest 1 minute and do 25-45 mins of moderate resistence tempo at 80 rpm's, hr should be up there, but nowhere near your AT.

    >

  • jkaiser20 Rookie 73 posts since
    Sep 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Dec 27, 2007 7:08 AM (in response to Active Ingredient)
    Re: Trainer tricks
    Active Ingredient wrote:

     

     

    Here's a great once a week strength workout, you could even push to twice a week--12 times 1 min on 1 min off, work is at 50 rpm's heavy resistence, strict form on the aero bars, recovery is whatever.  HR should not be sky high.  At conclusion, rest 1 minute and do 25-45 mins of moderate resistence tempo at 80 rpm's, hr should be up there, but nowhere near your AT.

     

     

     

    I also think my 'bike' strength is lacking. I have also been doing these strength type workouts during the week. I already shamelessly stole these from some guy named jroden who used to be popular on some other board...

     

    My comment around my HR (in addition to me being a rookie) is really just becasue I don't have much other way to track / measure effort. I agree I need to 'get over it' on some levels, do the workout, and move on. I worry alot that if I simply rely on PE, I will be cheating.

     

    Now, restructuring my schedule to be fresh on the bike....hmmm, will get back to you. But I think early am will be the solution for me, and I am working in that direction. I have 15 days coming where i will be off the bike (vacation to the states), so I am trying to get all this positioned for when the real work starts in late Jan. Probably try to do pure strength training during that time just for fun. NO YOGA!

  • ussoccer Rookie 1,412 posts since
    Dec 11, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Dec 27, 2007 7:14 AM (in response to Active Fred)
    Re: Trainer tricks

     

    Finally got around to digging into this thread... GREAT stuff, Mr. Active Roden! Even better is that now I know who you really are. Believe it or not, I had no idea. But the word usage and phrases, and the ability to hold 370W four times for 10 minutes gave it away!

     

    Nothing to add other than that I am taking notes. I begin my serious build in January! Although I do not have controllable Wattage, I do have a read out and I will use it to simulate some of this. The only difference will likely be that my total time for any given Trainer session will probably be less, and of course the Watts will be much less, but I hope to have to work load incrementally about the same.

     

    Currently I do three workouts each once per week:

     

    1. 5 x 5' with moderate resistance in big chain ring and gear 5 on the small cog (wish I knew the gear ratio, just haven't checked) with 3' rest. (~55-60 min)

    2. 2 x 2' ladder. Gear 6, 7, 8, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 (5 is rest, as that's normal gear) (~50-55 min)

    3. 10 x 1' Highest Gear, try to hold 400W (sometimes not very successful) w/1' rest.

     

    January will see one of those rides going longer, and all of them with more workload. But I will probably only go 3 times per week so that I can still get in quality runs.

     

    Feedback on how to move forward or what I might do for more benefit or even what I'm doing wrong is welcome.

     

     

  • Active Ingredient Rookie 9 posts since
    Dec 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Dec 27, 2007 7:33 AM (in response to Active Fred)
    Re: Trainer tricks

     

    Thor--I thought you were getting a new trainer for xmas??

     

     

    One thing I do notice this time of year is if I allow myself to go anaerobic, I have a lot harder time the next day.  I did a ride outside yesterday, it consistend of grinding through the slush for 2.5 hours and featured some steep climbs that I really had to work just to get over.  I'm sort of dragging today after what should have been an extended aerobic workout, oops.

     

     

    Jim--there is nothing wrong with hitting the hotel gym while you are traveling.  A lot of good bike racers will actually take time and build strength in the gym with a lot of power moves like squats and cleans and allow the total aerobic component to drift downward.  I prefer to work on the bike, but that's just me.

     

     

    The other thing you need to be aware of is the need for one or more fans and lots of water when you ride, otherwise you will get HR drift, which is not helpful.

     

     

     

     

     

  • tithers Rookie 1,259 posts since
    Nov 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Dec 27, 2007 8:33 AM (in response to Active Fred)
    Re: Trainer tricks

     

    Ummmm...I was JUST thinking that those graphs looked FAMILIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     

     

    Does Active pay you to post your graphs?:x

     

     

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