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16099 Views 77 Replies Latest reply: Jan 29, 2008 1:18 PM by cclaydog RSS 1 2 3 ... 6 Previous Next
Jim Sullivan032 Rookie 504 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Dec 31, 2007 6:40 AM

Does believing in God...

 

...really cause some people to doubt evolution?

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, most people I know believe in God; all of them accept evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

I realize that some people suggest there's a conflict, but come on.

 

 

  • OldBaldHippie Amateur 75 posts since
    Dec 13, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Dec 31, 2007 7:06 AM (in response to Jim Sullivan032)
    Re: Does believing in God...

    not for most mainliners....it was basically a fundie thing but now it appears to be part of the republican platform.....pro-life, anti-gay, anti-evolution....

  • Iontach Rookie 1,340 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Dec 31, 2007 7:10 AM (in response to OldBaldHippie)
    Re: Does believing in God...
    OldBaldHippie wrote:

    anti-evolution....

     

     

     

    Eppur, si muove.

  • pigeye Rookie 87 posts since
    Dec 13, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Dec 31, 2007 7:16 AM (in response to Jim Sullivan032)
    Re: Does believing in God...

    It would seem to give bigger problems with believing that the bible is the inerrant word of god and in belief in god itself.

  • kommish777 Rookie 23 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Dec 31, 2007 7:48 AM (in response to OldBaldHippie)
    Re: Does believing in God...

     

    OldBaldHippie wrote:

    not for most mainliners....it was basically a fundie thing but now it appears to be part of the republican platform.....pro-life, anti-gay, anti-evolution....

    BB, just so I know.... does the Lutheran Church as a whole agree with your pro-killing babies, pro-homosexuality, and pro-evolution ideas or are these the ideas of just one liberal within the Lutheran Church?

  • Legend 1,827 posts since
    Nov 9, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Jan 1, 2008 1:17 PM (in response to pigeye)
    Re: Does believing in God...

    I think you find that only the staunchest of fundies believe the bible is the inerrant word of God.  Most Christians believe it was divinely inspired and translated by imperfect humans.

  • JeanK Rookie 64 posts since
    Mar 9, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Jan 1, 2008 3:32 PM (in response to Jim Sullivan032)
    Re: Does believing in God...

     

    First, I'm wondering why the cool running site has suddenly become the forum for religious discussions!

     

     

    Here's my 2 cents.  I'm at peace with it and God, so you can take it or leave it.   That won't affect my faith.  Maybe this will give you pause to consider yours.

     

     

    Belief = faith = trust in that which is unseen and not able to be proven by human methods.  You can't have one without the other.

     

     

    Believing in God can be taken many different ways.  It can mean only that you believe He is real and that he exists.  Scripture tells us that even the demons believe God, and shudder.  They KNOW God is real. 

     

     

    Lots of people believe in God when it is convenient for them - natural disasters, times of stress and trouble.  He isn't a cosmic Santa Clause we can pull out when we need Him.

     

     

    Many, many, many people claim to believe in God, and claim that the Bible was translated by fallible humans.  Interesting.  I wonder how many people who claim that have taken the time to read the Bible - the whole thing - not just at Christmas and Easter in church - if they even attend a church that teaches out of the Bible (another issue - many, many, many churches don't teach the word of God, they merely tell people what they want to hear with no call to believe in God, to believe God, and to believe His word.)   I wonder how much time they have taken to realy evaluate all the different transaltions made over the past 200 yrs, and have stillr easoned away that over 50 authors, living in different times, have written a series of 66 books, that jive completely - and are interrelated in a way humans could never keep straight and engineer - heck, anyone ever play telephone as a kid?  Godd luck!  This is one complex book! 

     

     

    Did you know that when a new translation is made of the Bible, they return to the original languages - they don't go to say, the King James.  There are people who have spent their whole lives learning to work in the original Biblical languages, and they work in large teams, and also COVER THIS TASK IN PRAYER.  Which, again, requires belief - belief that the Holy Spirit is alive and active and that He guides and directs believers in Christ.  If a person has trusted in Christ for their salvation - confessed their sins and need of a savior, professed belief that Christ is the only worthy sacrifice, and that they chose to trust that He is sufficient,  repented or turned from their sins and past way of life - then they are guaranteed salvation and are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.  And, He is the counselor left for us by Christ in order to guide and direct believers in Christ. 

     

     

    Believing in God can mean that you not only believe that He exists, but that you also believe He is who He says He is - and that His word is true.  This is where the rubber meets the road.  Either God is who He says He is, or He isn't.  You can't believe just part of it.  Either you do, or you don't. 

     

     

    So, the answer to your question depends on what you are asking.  If you are asking can people believe that God exists and chose to believe evolution  - then yes - and really, people can believe whatever they want - it won't change the truth.

     

     

    People can even chose to believe whichever part of the Bible they chose, and discard the parts they don't like, claiming it was written by fallible men, that it is out of date, whatever excuse they want.  I don't know what they gain from this.  Again, belief doesn't make it true. 

     

     

    But, can you believe that God is who He says He is - intrinsically - the Creator, love, truth, sovereign, all powerful, all knowing, ever present, and then chose to believe evolution?  No.  Either God is God, or He isn't.   How can you decide to believe he is God, but decide He isn't big enough to be the creator.  If He isn't, then was he an accident?  A  mere witness to creation? 

     

     

    How sad to chose to believe we are the product of an accident in the primordial soup.  Either that, or we were purposefully created exactly how a loving creator wanted us! 

     

     

    None of us were there.  Contrary to popular belief, evolution is not scientific fact.  The scientific method requires observation and reproduction of the event - neither of which we can do.  We can merely speculate, and frankly, evolution and creation both require faith - it is just a question of what you chose to believe.  And, evolution is contrary to all the laws of physics.  Creation lines up with them all perfectly!  Law of conservation of matter, Entropy, and on and on.  Check it out.

     

     

    By the way, a good read is In Six Days, ed. John F Ashton, PhD - 50 scientists and why they believe creation.  These are modern day intelligent, leaders in their feilds, with PhD's.  Yes, brilliant scientists chose to believe God is who He says He is. 

     

     

    It's a faith issue.  I, for one, don't want a God I can put in a box, that I can figure out.  What use would that be? 

     

     

  • culinarydoctor Expert 77 posts since
    Oct 31, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jan 1, 2008 5:18 PM (in response to JeanK)
    Re: Does believing in God...

     

    Amen Sister! 

     

     

    Eppur, si muove.

     

     

    The previous phrase was uttered by Galileo Galilee after denoucing his scientific discovery pertaining to planetary motion.  The Bible never said anything about the Earth being flat, but it was part of the religious dogma and since the priests were the educated folk of his time, they "knew" the truth.  At some point faith is required for a working paradigm, even just for sake of sanity.  'Will gravity continue to act on my body?', I don't know because it is a future question, but I believe that gravity is real and will continue to pull me towards the center of the Earth.  My frustration is that with all of our scientific advancement, the prodominant theory is called "Big Bang", an onemotapia for a really loud sound.  How is that different from "Let there be light"?  What about Newtonian physics, cause and reaction?  Everything in the "real" world that is created has a creator.  We are no different. 

     

     

    love, hope and faith.

     

     

  • Iontach Rookie 1,340 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Jan 2, 2008 7:25 AM (in response to Jim Sullivan032)
    Re: Does believing in God...

     

    Jim Sullivan032 wrote:

    To me, the status of God can't be diminshed by any advancement in our scientific understanding; it is, in fact, enhanced.

     

     

     

     

     

    Absolutely.  The more we learn about the universe, the more powerful God is required to be.  I cannot understand why this should be a threat to theists.  

     

     

    I'm sticking a link to that interview with Guy Consolmagno in again, because it's excellent.

     

     

     

  • broadbill Rookie 124 posts since
    Sep 27, 2004
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Jan 2, 2008 9:36 AM (in response to JeanK)
    Re: Does believing in God...

     

    JeanK wrote:

     

     

    +None of us were there. Contrary to popular belief, evolution is not

    scientific fact.+

     

     

    You are partially correct here.  There is no such thing as scientific fact.  Nothing can be proven 100% true or false...there is only data suggesting either one conclusion or another.  That being said, the evidence is OVERWHELMING that evolution indeed occurred and continues to occur.  There is no such evidence that creation occurred.  Its just not there.

     

     

    +The scientific method requires observation and

    reproduction of the event - neither of which we can do.+

     

     

    Not true....evolution has been observed in any number of systems, including fossil records and taxonomy.  As for reproducing evolution, that is currently being done using viruses and bacteria since their generations are measured in hours instead of years like us.  Evolution can be studied in a relatively short period of time as opposed to the millions of years it took us  to get where we are.  Again, these studies also further evidence that evolution is going on, similar to what Darwin observed all those years ago.  Again, where is the evidence for creation?  Its just not there.

     

     

    +We can merely

    speculate, and frankly, evolution and creation both require faith+

     

     

    Not really, I think evolution is going on because of conclusions made from all of those scientific studies I've referred to...it doesn't take faith for that. 

     

     

    +And, evolution is

    contrary to all the laws of physics. Creation lines up with them all

    perfectly! Law of conservation of matter, Entropy, and on and on. Check

    it out.+

     

     

    Now you are just talking silliness!  What laws of physics are you referring to?

     

     

       

     

     

  • rlemert Pro 250 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jan 2, 2008 9:45 AM (in response to JeanK)
    Re: Does believing in God...

     

    "Contrary to popular belief, evolution is not scientific fact. The scientific method requires observation and reproduction of the event - neither of which we can do. We can merely speculate, and frankly, evolution and creation both require faith - it is just a question of what you chose to believe. And, evolution is contrary to all the laws of physics. Creation lines up with them all perfectly! Law of conservation of matter, Entropy, and on and on. Check it out."

     

     

     

     

     

      I'm sorry, but perhaps it would help if you checked out science a little bit more so that you understood what it really says. For example, from what I understand even a lot of the die-hard creationists have given up on the idea that evolution somehow "violates" entropy because they've finally learned a little thermodynamics. Have you ever sorted a deck of cards or built a castle out of a set of blocks? If so, you've "violated" entropy because you've created order out of chaos. The problem is you're looking only at the 'local' effect, and entropy is not a local phenomena - it's universal. You may have created local order, but it's more than offset by the increase in the total entropy of the universe caused by (among other things) the digestion of the food you ate that gives you the energy for either activity, the warmth provided by the room in which the activities were carried out, the generation of the light by which you saw what you were doing, etc.

     

     

     

     

     

      Also, the scientific method has never had a requirement of being able to "reproduce" an event in order to develop an adequate theory to explain it. A theory is simply a coherent description of how nature behaves that a) explains all the facts within the limits of that theory, b) is predictive, and c) is falsifiable. (Newton's theory of gravity was shown by Einstein to be wrong because it's predictions do not agree with experimental results under extreme conditions. It remains a valuable resource, however, as long as we restrict ourselves to non-relativistic conditions.) Evolution and creation must both explain the following observations (among countless others): the fossil record - including the facts that 1) simpler fossils are found in older rocks than more complex fossils, and 2) that the development of many features can be traced through the fossil line; the development of disease resistance in different germs; the develoment of different beak types in birds; the distribution of life-forms in Hawaii; (I could go on for a long time). Creationism's explanation boils down to "because someone/something decided that this was how it was going to be." Explain to me how that statement can be used to predict the outcome of an experiment and how I can prove it wrong.

     

     

     

     

     

      By the way, saying that scientists haven't done something (e.g. "reproduced" evolution) is NOT the same thing as saying it can't be done. Two hundred years ago no one had ever split the atom. Does that mean it can't be done?

     

     

  • Iontach Rookie 1,340 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Jan 2, 2008 10:12 AM (in response to JeanK)
    Re: Does believing in God...

     

    JeanK wrote:

    And, evolution is contrary to all the laws of physics.  Creation lines up with them all perfectly!  Law of conservation of matter, Entropy, and on and on.  Check it out.

     

    I'm trying to think anything that violates conservation of matter more than creation does. 

     

     

    I'm failing.  Can anyone help?

     

     

  • soldierdude Rookie 3 posts since
    Jan 10, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Jan 10, 2008 11:22 AM (in response to Jim Sullivan032)
    Re: Does believing in God...

     

    My belief in God has caused me to question evolution.  I ( and most Christians I know ) accept that life is capable of adapting.  Example: every year there is a new flu virus.  But I need help with somethings like:

     

     

    1)  Life began from random events when we can't create dna let alone life.  We have the technology to play with molecules at the atomic level.  If life is a random event, we should be able to create it.

     

     

    2) How did life make the jump from single cell to multi cell.  Jane and Joe Amoeba got together and wanted to see they could make?

     

     

    3) ( Rated PG)  The jump from asexual repoduction to sexual.  Jane and Joe something woke up one morning with sexual organs?

     

     

    4)  All the salamanders  layed lizard eggs one morning.  Who organized that?  How come it's never happened again?

     

     

    5) All the members of the pre-whale species decided to learn how to swim?

     

     

     

     

     

    If anyone can give me perfect answers to these questions, then I might blindly accept evolution.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • broadbill Rookie 124 posts since
    Sep 27, 2004
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Jan 10, 2008 12:47 PM (in response to soldierdude)
    Re: Does believing in God...

     

    I think you are questioning evolution because you don't really understand it.  I'm not sure how your belief system/belief in God could give you any insight into the validity of evolution.  Unless you know something I don't, the bible doesn't mention anything about evolution so I'm not sure how you can use that as a basis to refute evolution. 

     

     

     

     

     

    Your questions are good ones, but by reading them you don't really have a solid understanding of evolution.  In fact, all of your questions have been answered by scientific study.  I've answered them in short....

     

    soldierdude wrote:

    My belief in God has caused me to question evolution.  I ( and most Christians I know ) accept that life is capable of adapting.  Example: every year there is a new flu virus.  But I need help with somethings like:

     

    1)  Life began from random events when we can't create dna let alone life.  We have the technology to play with molecules at the atomic level.  If life is a random event, we should be able to create it.

     

     

    Scientists have been able to recreate the conditions that have led to simple organic molecules.

     

     

    2) How did life make the jump from single cell to multi cell.  Jane and Joe Amoeba got together and wanted to see they could make?

     

     

    I assume you mean "mate"...the jump from single to multicellular organisms was probably because of cooperation....symbiotic relationships are found all over in nature  these relationshiops also lead to multicellular organisms.

     

     

    3) ( Rated PG)  The jump from asexual repoduction to sexual.  Jane and Joe something woke up one morning with sexual organs?

     

     

    This probably has more to do with the advantage of genetic diversity...you obviously have very little genetic diversity with asexual reproduction...sexual reproduction allow life a better gene pool to pick from.

     

     

    4)  All the salamanders  layed lizard eggs one morning.  Who organized that?

     

     

    *I assume you are talking about the evolution of simple lizard species to more complex lizard species?  This is a commonly misunderstood facet of evolution...that significant evolution occurs in just one generation.  In fact it took millions of years for that simple lizard species to evolve to the more complext lizard we know today.  Nobody had to organize the process of evolution...all it took was the pressure of survival of the fittest...the simple lizard evolved to better adapt to his environment those lizards that became better adapted were more fit and passed along to the next generation. *

     

     

    How come it's never happened again?

     

     

    It's happening still..evolution is still going on...we can't tell its going in since it takes millions of years of evolution to see noticable differences in a species.  

     

     

     

     

     

    5) All the members of the pre-whale species decided to learn how to swim?

     

     

    I think you have it backwards....our ancestors most likely evolved in water...so the question is: when did pre-terrestial species decide to evolve to be able to survive on land?  Again, it took millions of years for our terrestial ancestors to evolve to the point they could survive on land.

     

     

     

    If anyone can give me perfect answers to these questions, then I might blindly accept evolution.

     

     

    The nice thing about evolution is that you don't have to blindly accept evolution.  There is evidence everywhere, from our natural world to scientific studies.  You haven't been bothered to learn about it or look it up.  Its there....leave the blind acceptance for your belief in God...that is where you need blind acceptance.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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