My faith in healthy discourse is renewed...I'm convinced your intentions and many others in this discussion are on point and seeking an answer..not making up new questions...Those with some knowledge of the governing body who made this decision would do everyone a great service by researching a website we might contact to air our views, pro and con...those are the people that will intitiate a change..not all of our ranting between each other...anyone know who we can contact?? NH? help a little instead of argue alot? I will send my two cents worth in today!!

regarding the air driven headphones..do you think that this or any solution proposed to these anti Ipod writers will be simply dimissed as NH just did, as Not the Issue..there's more to our objections..you don't get it..we don't want anyone running that that's not completely focused on the task at hand...one foot down.. then the next...no distractions of any kind...pretty soon God forbid! they will want to ban all the fast hot runnergirls.. who I personally use on long runs as a major visual distraction and pace setter.. that was a lame joke for those who also want to ban humour from these discussions

Jeff, Parker and Susan, I think you will understand my outright anger at being called names, then having it substantiated by saying it is because the other person is "debating" and they don't like me hitting on points of their argument. So, with that said, let's get back on point. The issue here is not whether headphones are dangerous, are distracting or any of the other stances that have been taken. Now, I am not a race director, nor do I claim to know all of the ins and outs of the USATF. But, I have asked multiple RD's and very experienced runners what is up with this issue and they have relayed the following. 1) The rule was put into place mainly because runners were using those bulky and inconvenient portable CD players, or even walkmen during races. As anyone knows, these things DO cause a huge distraction to the runner as they skip, the batteries die pretty fast, etc. My counterpoint is that the iPod, or other MP3 players eliminate that distraction by its upgrades and overall size and how it is used. They are made to be able to click a button and just listen, for the most part. 2) The USATF wants to create a level playing field for the runners in it's sanctioned races. This is meant to eliminate folks using communication devices that give one runner an unfair advantage over another runner by having someone give them posts about other runners, or changes to the course, whatever. The funny thing about this is that this is a part of the Tour de France, and all other endurance cycling events, where riders are zooming along at crazy speeds, on bikes, with communication earbuds in their ears, and support cars right behind them, yet they often manage orchestrate a course with unbelievable speed and grace. The big crashes are usually due to the course, weather or crowds. My counterpoint to this is that the iPod does not communicate with your support crew. I believe that, and probably selfishly so, that the above mentioned reasoning alone should be cause for officials in this area to re-visit this issue to see whether it is still relevant. At best, it should be stated that for all elite runners, and these are the guys that are invited to the race, not paid to enter, and are competing for points and money, should maybe be held to some sort of standard here, although I certainly don't have a problem with them wearing an iPod, and the bulk of the field, ie those of us that are running for the fun of it, the challenge of it, or the cause we are supporting should be given the option to wear an iPod. This would just take a little realistic research from both sides of the fence.

Now, I must show you, and the other visitors to this page, what NH Senior feels about those using a headphones.

Hi Coastwalker,

You guys over on the coast put on some very well managed events. Pretty savvy in the promotion department too.

+I agree that few if any RDs want to put on unsafe events but one only has to stand at critical and confusing conner at a race announcing which way to go *to know that the headphone users are full of **** when they say 1) they can hear well enough and 2) even more important, that they are fully conscious of where they are on the planet when they are bopping along with even their eyes closed sometimes.* +This is the typical Generalized statement that we have to expect. What would be said if I, or Jeff, or anyone else came on here and said, "Any RD that says that they think that all iPod users bop along, oblivious, with our eyes closed, are full of ****?" Hmmm, that's not insulting? Oh, but wait, it must be for own good.

The issue with liability insurance, is that as an RD, it would be tough to (effectively) claim that one did not know that the massive number of headsets at races is less than safe and that the governing race bodies and the insurance companies have recommend (at a minimum) that headsets not be allowed. The issue for what is negligence is that being responsible is often tough to define but negligence and irresponsibility is pretty easy to see after someone gets hurt. Please show us some valid statistical data to support your claims here. Negligence and irresponsibility are pretty broad definitions for people, and I can bet that there is equal, if not swaying in the other direction, of negligence and irresponsibility from non-iPod users. What my point is, is that so far, noone has provided anything other than, "One time, I was running a race and some guy using headphones ran by me with his eyes closed." I think that if this issue was researched for one year, one year in which runners would be given the option to use headphones during races, and a study was completed, the folks at both the USATF and the insurance companies would see that the use of headphones creates no more of a danger than anything else associated with a race. I don't see anyone rushing out to make it mandatory for us to wear bubble wrap when we run, we assume a level of risk as runners. Wearing headphones is nothing more than risk management. Some people can operate with headphones, some people cannot. Some people can operate with cotton shirts, some people cannot and collapse in the middle of the course due to heat exhaustion. Should we enforce a ban on cotton shirts?

RDs as a class have very little backbone on this issue right now because emotional blackmail has them living in fear. That will change overnight when the eventual happens. Insurance policies can go away if the policy holder does not live up to items in the policy. Standard language in many things say that the act of ignoring something is not binding a subsequent occurrence. Let's see, this policy has been in place for how long? And still, the sport has not gone under, even with the iPod bandits sneaking our listening devices into races. The sky is not falling. Saying that rational RD's have no backbone because they want to give this issue it's fair day of debate and research shows says alot about your intentions. Give this topic fair play and allow it to be discussed.

Ultimately not being held liable doesn't get you your defense money back in a state where the looser doesn't have to pay the court costs of the winner. If a car swerves to avoid a headset user and plows into a dozen runners, the limits of most of the race coverage will be exceeded instantly, then the plaintiff will look around to all those involved personally. I suppose we should not drive, because what happens if we get hit by someone, sued, and win. Risk assumption is part of our everyday life. I don't need someone to stand over me and tell me how to live my life.

I've had a personal umbrella liability policy for over 30 years and thank goodness I had it when some rich SOBs son got hit with a bat in baseball game and the guy had enough money and lawyer friends to make the lives of a ton of innocent people miserable.

Not enforcing the safety rules is nuts. Letting the inmates (the runners) run the asylum is also nuts and it demeans those in charge of things. This says everything anyone needs to say. This is about you wanting to be the Hall Monitor, and no matter what, even if some kid is running to the health room for an emergency, a rule is a rule. And you will not be demeaned by someone questioning your point of view. Huh?

Sorry for being so long. I really felt this deserved full discussion.

Jeff, Parker and Susan, I think you will understand my outright anger at being called names, then having it substantiated by saying it is because the other person is "debating" and they don't like me hitting on points of their argument.

I do understand - and again apologize if my previous post seemed as though I was calling you out individually. I was not. I do think you are trying to engage in debate, as the rest of us are. I laid out the same challenge of mutual respect to NH yesterday, who seems to have taken at least a portion of it to heart. So on that count, I can say we're all making progress. Yay, us. Oh, and I don't want anyone to think that all I want to do it have a big hug circle with everyone here - I think that good back and forth discussion serves everyone well. We can do it without resorting to name-calling and veiled insults though. Enough said on that.

The issue here is not whether headphones are dangerous, are distracting or any of the other stances that have been taken.

So what, then, is the issue as you see it?

You lay out some great points about the origination of the rule (I agree with you that today's music players are far less user-intensive than the old walkmans and CD players - thank goodness for that!), and the level playing field in competitive races. A while back someone said that the policy was probably intended to serve different purposes for different parts of the race group. Are any of us at a level where we'd even need to consider radio communications with our support group? The elite runners (by which I mean the prizewinners, not snobby every-day folk who think they are elite when they are not) are using all of this time we are debating out here to get out and get some miles in, do some cross-training, or otherwise prep for their next race. Maybe because it's their livliehood - probably not true for most of us. They also have coaches and trainers who are most likely staying on top of this and other guidelines regarding competitive enhancements, to ensure they are running ethically. At least that's the hope.

Please show us some valid statistical data to support your claims here. Negligence and irresponsibility are pretty broad definitions for people, and I can bet that there is equal, if not swaying in the other direction, of negligence and irresponsibility from non-iPod users...I think that if this issue was researched for one year, one year in which runners would be given the option to use headphones during races, and a study was completed, the folks at both the USATF and the insurance companies would see that the use of headphones creates no more of a danger than anything else associated with a race.

I wholeheartedly agree. Let's get some empirical research. I have a hunch - and this is only my opinion - that headphones don't pose the significantly greater danger that some think they do, so I'd want to see some form of research that proves or disproves the theory. I don't want to necessarily be proven right, I'd be just as satisfied if research showed me that it was true. I think that's the direction that cellphones while driving have gone - initially people thought it was dangerous, now I think there's a body of research that says "yes we were right." I'd like to see the same be done with headphones while driving. Of course, research costs money, which could come in the form of higher insurance payments, higher registration fees, higher membership dues to USATF and other organizations. If only there were some rich person who had money to spend, and chose to spend it on paying a research team, instead of hiring lawyers to cause a ruckus, as NH mentioned in the other posts you quoted! Sadly, I have less faith in seeing that happen.

It's supposed to hit 70 degrees where I am today, so I am excited about a chance for a warm-weather run in the middle of January!

--Jeff

One cannot view the usatf rules untill you buy a membership....iBut this is their official opinion..my reading/ intrepretation of this is as follows

1."We have concerns" ( translation: no evidence..just concerns..)...2. "each participant assumes responsiblity for their own actions" (translation:if you get hurt, you're on your own, no claims of liablity, even if it's a RD's mistake, don't look to the race for compensation, ipod or no) {color:#000000}3. the rule is not new ( trans.we know the rule relative to todays enviornment is dated) 4. "insurance rates are rising" ( trans: insurance co.s are not demanding we ban ipods..we had a meeting and thought it would be less exposure without Ipods) 5."Race Directers have demanded clarification" ( trans: What the @%$, we can't enforce this..who was at that meeting??) 6. "We understand race directors may not apply these rules to everyone"..(trans: your choice, your decision, and since many of you think this is wack, make your own decisions on an indiviual basis)7. "we encourgage race directors to put safety first" (translation: DUH!!)

{color:#0000ff}Anybody else read this vague and nebulous a#$ covering any differently??

USA TRACK & FIELD STATEMENT ON HEADPHONE USE DURING EVENTS

USA Track & Field competition rules prohibit the use of headphones. All competition rules apply to sanctioned competitions, including road races.

USATF Competition Rule 144.3b addresses assistance given to athletes. This rule prohibits electronic devices; as such devices may offer competitive advice or other assistance to participants. While some competition rules are adopted or modified for competitive reasons, this rule also recognizes an important safety issue. USATF, its insurance carrier, race directors, and race volunteers have significant safety concerns with headphones. These concerns are not limited to participant safety - all parties must consider the safety of event volunteers and spectators.

Participants in most events and circumstances assume responsibility for their own actions and likely do not have claims of liability to others if they (the headphone-wearing participants) are injured due to their own negligence. However, in any race, a participant is not only responsible for him/herself_, but_ also has a responsibility to respect and allow his/her fellow participants to have the safest and most enjoyable race possible.

This rule is not new, nor is USATF's and race director's concern for safety. Further, USATF is not trying to be "big brother" and micro-manage thousands of events. Beyond our obvious concerns for safety, we must act pragmatically. Insurance rates continue to increase rapidly, and accidents, near accidents, and other claims require proactive, thoughtful action from all involved. We are under substantial pressure from our insurers to reduce the risk of injury to participants, officials, volunteers, and bystanders. It is very possible that insurance coverage will be reduced or eliminated with respect to claims based on headphone-wearing participants.

Given the impact on everyone - the increased risk of injury to all participants, the higher insurance costs that will inevitably be passed along to participants, and confusion with existing competition rules and safety guidelines - race directors have requested clarification. In many cases, race directors have asked for rules and safety guidelines that eliminate headphones.

We understand that race directors may not actively apply all competition rules to all participants (in most cases, rules are most often applied to those competing for top overall and age group place finishes and prizes). The race director and his/her technical officials (referee, jury, and games committee) must review the application of rules, resolve disputes, and decide appeals. Ultimately, the race director is responsible for event safety, and event technical officials are responsible for the application of competitive rules. We strongly encourage the race director and event technical officials to put safety first, abide by all competition rules, and prohibit headphones at sanctioned events.