One thing I do know - this whole denial, the belief that headphone users couldn't possibly be causing any more problems than others just proves to those of us who have seen otherwise in many races that you are unaware of what's going on., and also you might want to consider that insulting and alienating the people who put on races and do go USATF meetings and belong to RRCA is maybe not the smartest thing to do.

I do not believe that headphone wearers are aware of how distracted they are and I have seen posts that indicate that poeple who switch to racing headphone -free are surprised at how much they have been missing. There are 2 headphone users in my own club. Both are good people, not inconsiderate, not the kind who intentionally do anything that might cause a problem and both are certain that they are just as aware of their surroundings when they have their music on low as they are without headphones. But when we've tried to get their attention in races, one is no problem but the other - forget about it! You can run out into the street, shout, wave your arms, she just bops along to the music, totally oblivious - but she will still swear she is aware of her surroundings when she listens - just can't believe otherwise. I think many of the posters here are probably in the same boat.

I have seen some positive changes, with some headphone wearers leaving their headphones around their necks and out of their ears at the start and the finish of the race. That's a definite improvement. On the other hand, I still see groups of friends wearing headphones and talking very loudly to each other so they can hear themselves with their earbuds still in, making it more difficult for others to listen to race instructions or the national anthem, and recently had one race postponed for several minutes because a similar group wouldn't shut up for a moment of silence at a Veteran's Day race to honor those who had lost their lives including a local soldier who had died that week in Iraq. Someone had to go up the group and tap shoulders to get them to pay attention. That's the kind of oblivious behavior that gives headphone wearers a bad reputation, even if it doesn't cause any safety issues.

I didn't think anyone, headphone wearer or not, deliberately set out to disrupt another's race or make life more difficult for the officials or volunteers, although with some of the posters here, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm being too generous, but please realize that headphone use can be way more distracting than you realize, and not going with the flow in a crowded race can interfere with and disrupt others racing way more than most headphone wearers realize. Have a little consideration, and try a race without them; leave the headphones at home, even if they aren't officially banned, or at the very least keep the sound low and leave them off for the start instructions, the first crowded sections of the race and the finish area.

What I said was the inmates cannot be allowed to run the asylum, meaning those who display whacko thinking don't get to set rules. and to believe that is to demean the efforts of those put in the volunteer time to attempt the management.

<<<<< You see where I am going with this? He has even said that he has, and will, selectively enforce rules and regulations and fine you accordingly. Does this sound like a fair and unbiased person?

What he said was that one can only enforce things within the resources one has to enforce things. I will enforce what is easy and productive to enforce and it is easy to find and enforce against "your deliberate decision" to flaunt the rule. The other non-ipoders who cluelessly run or stop in front of other runners are impossible to identify ahead of time and I've told you and you've told everyone that it would be nuts to be jumping out into the running crowd to enforce things. So I'm not ignoring the non-ipoder, I can't identify them. You are essentially wearing blinking lights with a big sign that says here I am. Why would I pick a hard target when there are so many easy ones. Yes I like a challenge, but in case you forget, I've got a race to manage and lots of other nice, friendly cooperative runners who deservce and will get much more of my time than I wil l give to you. Well not literally, because I'm not going to manage anymore, but figuratively speaking in the "what I would do" tense.

So what you are suggest with your very whacko logic is that because I can't find and identify ALL possible safety issues then I should enforce non of them. Like I said sgray. Your parent didn't buy that BS when you said Johnny down the street did something wrong and got away with it so you shouldn't be punished.

<<< And he is directing a race that people pay money to run.

And it could have I was the owner of a hotel where you want a room, and you stay under my rules for my hotel as is how you buy many things and services.

Well folks, you can certainly rely on "lahrunner" to be the leader you want to follow right into the gates of haddies. He/she will prudently research the important items you need to know. Presented to you will be a proclamation of relevance, sample size, and appropriateness of the venue to be indicative of the average race relative to conditions, and possible likelihood of hazards.

The surfside marathon is: (from the website)

"limited to 500 total, for both the marathon and half. "

"The entire course is on the firm, smooth sand of the beach. Much of the beach is pristine and undeveloped"

Not a lot of vehicles, few crowds, few turns, almost never any bunched up runners at any point after 1/2 mile. Hurricanes aside, it's probably a very safe venue.

my clueless observation would be, I would absolutely believe that the RD of this race would honestly and forthrightly states that ".....he has never seen"

and I also believe that his race would require a distraction for boredom and from the discomfort that comes from running any distance on even the hardest packed sand. One's hips notice running on even the slight sideways incline after some distance defined by the individual runners body.

I've run on the last leg of the Rainer to Pacifc Relay which is over 5 miles of the hardest and flattest beach I've ever seen and that leg is a bear. Speed is darn near impossible because your foot slips slightly at push off. The it's hard to run the same speed as on the road.

Training on beach is one thing but a marathon is another story.

All in All it is probably a nice package for an event, but hardly one that gets near safety issues and one I might add is such a small size that the "RD" would certinaly need to listen to opinions least he not have enough runners. A big races can survive having a good size number not show up. A small race has a different cost ratio and things are different.

Oh, and to clear up a thought that someone else posted about how races can take money off of your credit card, because they do if you don't return your race chip. They can take it because you have taken possession of their property, and did not return it. Running with an iPod is not depriving any race of any of their property. Therefore, taking money from my credit card, without my express consent is illegal. I would love to see the race flier for a race that says, if we catch you running with an iPod, we will fine you some amount of money, to be determined by us. I would send that off to the community that the race is being held in and I can imagine that they would have quite a bit to say about it. I wonder what a States Attorney would think about the legality of taking money from someone's account, because you took a picture of them with what appeared to be a listening device on. And you appointed yourself as arbitor to determine who would be fined for what reasons. Twist this around any way you like, bottom line is that you are saying that you would fine people because it is easy to catch a certain group. Another, far more dangerous group can still participate, without fine, because it is just too hard for you to catch them. Here is a thought, word your liability waiver to read, "Listening devices are DISCOURAGED. If any injury is caused to which you are found negligent, and you have been found to be wearing a listening device, you will be held liable by any parties involved." It would seem to me that this would put peoples butts on the line, which is what you like to do, and we would see what kind of people we really have out there. I would love to see how many non-headphone users try to intentionally cause mishaps so they can prove their points?

NHSenior, you really need to lighten up. By a pet. Do something, you are really coming across a angry, lonely person. I have gone from purely disagreeing with you to now just feeling sorry for you. If your life is that wrapped around whether someone percieves you as losing control, then you have already lost control. Take a deep breath and don't let little things bug you so much. It is just a race. It is a recreational activity for a huge majority of us. None of us make money on it, unless you start fining people. If this matter is really that important to you, and it certainly appears that it is, please list any event that you ever plan on managing, or directing, and teameyepod will avoid it all costs.

Rock on people. Rock on Team Eyepod.

NHSenior wrote:
*I will put down people *who attempt to convince others with mis-leading logic or who take statements out of context and either draw conclusions from them of use the to discredit other parties.

Yikes! In all fairness to those of us you despise - Team EyePod - please tell us which races you are affiliated with so we can avoid them. Oh wait! I said, "In all fairness..." a concept beyond you! I think you might benefit from the following site: http://www.angermgmt.com/

Please tell me how I have Cut and Pasted your exact postings out of context? You claim to be this great debator, when in fact you are nothing more than a very angry person who will twist peoples words around to say they support your argument. I made very careful consideration to make sure that I pasted all of your words in a post, and you still said that it was out of context, and not complete. You want me to cut and paste every single one of your postings? That would not be good for anyone. It is bad enough to try to stay focused on just one of your posts, let alone an entire thread of them. When someone posts something of relevance, you wave your own personal magic wand of logic and determine it bears no merit. Funny, but quite a few others think they do. And, as for you asking if I think all RD's should take a "What the Heck" attitude? No, but you do. I think that any person who is so deathly afraid of anyone thinking that they have no control, to the point that they want to start instituting fines, they need to take a step back and take a breath. I think that what every one of the pro-iPod users have asked is that people look at this more closely, and do it with an open mind. And, please don't claim that you do this. You have taken every single opportunity to make outlandish claims that Headphone wearers are the most dangerous element in all races. Once again, please support this with actual data. And, don't say that the insurance companies hide it. Insurance companies provide statistics all the time regarding vehicle claims, homeowner claims, business claims etc. So, where are the numbers that support your theory that because we wear headphones, we cause a majority of your mishaps. Second thought, keep it to yourself. You will most likely do nothing more than twist the truth around anyhow. And, it does appear that us iPod users have done something really great for the sport, if we played even a small part in your decision to stay away from directing any more races.

Now, onto more important discussions. For all of us supercool, and really fun loving iPod users, what kind of music do you guys put on your playlists when putting something together for a race? I am trying to come up with some new ideas and would love to hear from you. Currently, what I do is take songs that remind me of