I have posted the USATF rules in this discussion for those who wish to refresh...the origin of this particular "unfair advantage" rule goes back several years, predateing the proliferation of personal mobile music devices of today..it was written to preventing coaching amoung elite athletes ( the Olympics, world class marathons etc.) not because they distracted...conversely in the Tour de France ear pieces are allowed, with music/coaching, and seen as a safety benefit ( crash warnings, road obsticles etc.) and a performance edge... many and maybe most of the runners today cannot compete at the elite level...running is just running for them..music is not a performance edge...nothing short of rocket shoes will enhance most ot their performances..they just enjoy music while plodding along..I would imagine they would gladly return their Boston Marathon trophy if they used an ipod to win it....

All things are considered unsafe by insurance companies..if they could slip in a "Bonehead clause" I'm sure we would all like to be protected..in reality the USATF( which only sanctions races as to world times and course certifications..they cannot tell RD's how to run their race) allows RD's the benefit of availing themselves of cheaper insurance under their auspices by abiding by their rules..the insurance co's are specifically demanding nothing in regard to ipods and there use..they are simply requesting that events be made as safe as the RD's can make them...and they do a good job despite what you read hear about the dangerous sport of running... And because of the outcry and "lumping of ipods with unfair advantage restrictions", the USATF strongly "encourages" RD's to prohibit listenting devices...but they also allow lee way for the RD to use his/her own Judgement.. some RD's have prohibited but not enforced unless the violator was a winner or placer...some prohibited and enforced if they saw it...some do not prohibit..we are simply challenging the idea in those races prohibiting...and saying many runners will boycott ($$) races probiting this widely accepted practise of listening to music while running....

In at least 4 different messages I stated very clearly that I own an ipod, I run with an ipod on little used bike path in rural town and I freely admitted more than a few times that the Ipod is great to run with and that I can run much faster for much longer with special group of "back beat" heavy songs that I created a mix for. I have never disputed that.

I've also stated in more than one message that I know that it helps lots of people run.

So does that now mean I can question your experience.

I wish you "Who are you to" types would figure out that you sound just ever so dumb when you say things like that.

One minute it's "Let he who is without sin"

and the next minute it's "Don't judge me until you walked a mile in my shoes"

For crying out loud, get together, figure out which direction of the "who are you" you want to use and stick with that direction or nobody will believe a thing you say. According to you (that's all you ipodersl) nobody can question anything you say about your amazing personal abilities to have your brain work different than almost everyone else when it comes to distractions. Perhaps the music gives powers and ability far beyond those of other mortals.

we do not suggest that "the fastest" runners, of which I presume you are one since you're speaking for them with the crutch remark, understand our personal choice to see this as a run, usually for Diabetes or Arthritis or proceeds to a good cause etc...not a life or death struggle, or our paying job.. there are grandmothers, and handicapped runners, and twelve year olds and first timers who are not quite ready to make a charity race a test of mind, body and will, they want to be healthy and have fun..."they want to "cancel out their mind with music" I take it you don't listen to Mozart..it is well documented that listening to classical music can actually raise your IQ several points..no cancelling the mind there,... we are not discussing breaking rules god forbid..we are discussing the REASONING behind the rules, in this forum ..and whether there's a possiblity that a particular rule should be changed....it's Ok to complain in USA...a protected right not found in many countries...you of all people should know that

smiles

I thank you for your service to our country. I, too, serve our country, and have for over 18 years in the US Air Force. I won't bash you or call you names like other folks seem to enjoy doing on these boards. But I think you are missing the point. To stay with your military analogy, our military rewards it's members for making things better. I read about Airmen that have found better ways to do things, and made our jobs better, or just smarter in the way we carry out our duties, being given cash rewards. I would never dream of drawing a comparison to questioning the validity of wearing an iPod in a race, to refusing to fight for our country because we are pacifists. If you are saying that we should know the rules before we sign up, well, let me throw some things out to you. Even though War is our profession in the military, how many young folks sign up to go fight in a war, compared to the folks that sign up to learn a trade, or get money to go to school? Personally, and this is purely my view point, but the kid who signs up to go killing in a war??? I might have a real problem arming this kid up and letting him carry a weapon, but that is beyond this conversation. But every kid who voluntarily signs up is serving their country just the same. The point I am making is that, just like not every kid signs up in the Military to go off and fight in the war, not every person signs up to run a race to qualify for the Olympics. But covering the distance is the common goal for everyone in the race.

I have a great friend whose son was diagnosed with Luekemia two years ago. She has since raised tens of thousands of dollars for The Luekemia and Lymphoma Society through Team in Training. She could have shut herself in, and become a total wreck, and who could have blamed her? But instead, she got up and went out to do something about the disease that was attacking her child. She will tell you, without shame, that there was no way she could even think of running her half marathons without listening to her iPod. She had no intention of talking to other people, because running her races was a very emotional experience for her and one she wanted to be alone with herself for. Should she be fined? Should she have some fanatic snapping her photo and treat her like a criminal and charge her credit card some ridiculous amount of money?

The great thing about us humans is that we have the ability to use reasoning when making decisions. As much as some folks would like to tell us that we have no business thinking on our own, we do. And just because something is written as a rule, we, as paying patrons, have every right to question that rule. Especially if that rule has no factual data to support it. How many laws have been changed in our country because the reasoning behind needing the law became inconsequential? And, just like the military analagy, you cannot possibly believe that all laws should be held in the same regard. Once again, driving 5 mph over the speed limit is, technically speeding and against the law. However, I would never hold a driver doing that speed in the same light as an armed robber. Steroid use and iPod use are two vastly different things.

Once again, thank you for your service. And, the next time you see someone out running in a race, and they are listening to their iPod, instead of automatically viewing that person as a rule breaker, think about what that person's motivation might be for being out there at that race. You never know, they might be the person who raises that last dollar needed to cure a terrible disease. Now, keeping them from using their iPod seems kinda small doesn't it.

How often do you do need to get bloodied (figuratively) over the silly completely uninformed things you say before you figure out that you have brought a knife to a gun fight.

Races don't need "fanatics" snapping photos to get the job done in an accurate and very clear fashion without allocating many resources. I've told you that I've just had someone set up my Sony Digit movie camera at an unlikely spot on a race course and it takes perfect pictures. That's just one easy way.

However, if you were part of a race management crew for some races you would know many things that would help you sound less like a know-nothing. If you are serious about fighting headphone ban, you should learn some of the everyday things from inside the enemy camp. You can't even protect yourself from getting beating in your forum proclamations. What is it going to be like in actual stuff on race day at races in this rebellion. You can't work against that which you don't know about.

Many many races of all sizes allow national and local photographers to take photos to sell to runners. They get excellent high quality photos and it costs the race no money, no personnel and no worries in the process.

Look at some of these links and see if you think some court would rule in the defendants favor of being in possession of a banned device during a race. You see, some of the waivers have been changed to "possession" as opposed to "use". I only mention the "court" thing because you mentioned taking a race to court. The race wouldn't bother to take a runner to court. It doesn't need to catch all or even very many. Just make the penalty so strong a financial pain that most of the ipod world will cave.

City of Angels

Carlsbad marathon

Oh BTW, sorry to sound like I'm an expert on every subject but the "possession" thing was already established in law years ago for jerks that thought they were smarter than the Fish and Game departments in states. You see, you can't just put down your fishing rod in a boat and "say" you are just holding it for a guy that is off taking a leak in the bushes when you didn't buy a license or are hunting or fishing after a prohibited hour. Most F & G laws state that "Having fishing or hunting gear in the field (area of use) is prima fascia evidence of hunting or fishing. Just having the ipod in your hands while moving on race course during the races will be enough.

Each time you write you attempt to bring a bigger knife. You know bringing a bigger knife isn't going to do it. Didn't you see that Indiana Jones movie?

Edited to add:

Another thing you may not know is that most of the established better races were doing fine financially 5 years ago without the ipoders. All that a boycott might do is have remove a level of hassle from some races. Races get bigger because they can and not because they need to like normal businesses. There are no stockholders demanding growth and there are still lots of runners who run for the sake of the running.