Here is a very brief summary of where I see the debate at this time.

Pro-iPod: Individuals should have the right to make an appropriate and responsible decision regarding their music (personal freedom) and the use of iPods has helped motivate many runners (it helps grow the sport).
Anti-iPod: It is against the rules because it could provide an unfair advantage and iPod use may increase safety risks (and insurance costs) in a race environment.

I am again asking that people post when they have something new to contribute and can do so without insulting other members. If anyone would like to post some hard data (not anecdotes), that would be great. At this point, the lengthy rehashings by the frequent posters on both sides are becoming equally tiresome. I hope we are all here because we share a passion for running and can treat each other with genuine respect. I will end with the final paragraph from the artical linked in the original post:
"Let's face it folks, whether you're for it or against it, we have to come up with some sort of détente that allows everyone their space, freedom and safety."

>>>>"Let's face it folks, whether you're for it or against it, we have to come up with some sort of détente that allows everyone their space, freedom and safety."

Jay, with all due respects, this issue isn't a democracy. Employees of a company don't tell the company what rules they will follow. Likewise the customers of company don't tell the company what they will sell and what the terms will be.

The "you" in the rest of this is meant for the Ipoders

Yes the company should listen to the buyer from a seller standpoint to some degree but not to the point of having the customers run the business, particularly when it is not as much of a buyers market as the ipoders want to think.

I know the Ipoders think that it is a buyers market, but most of the better races were better races before the ipods. Their attendance was very good, many at the sell out level already and profits were very good for the recipient whoever that might have been. Most of the race do not "need" to grow and a fall back in numbers will probably be a welcome relief to many RD because the races have gotten beyond the ability to manage them without tons of Malox.

Many races are also getting too long on the clock and Cities and towns are not happy. Why do folks think the Boston Marathon moved the start back to the mid morning. Why, because 26.2 mile of the cities and towns want their towns back earlier in the day.

The ipod is not just a safety issue. Getting into the "slow runner" issue is like getting into "mom and apple pie". Boston has already broached the subject. Other races will follow. Sure, the ipod has made it possible from many people to run that might not have run otherwise". That doesn't mean that the rest of the non-running world has take a back seat, and that is what is starting to happen with 5 to 7-8 hour marathons. RDs are reluctant to talk about this yet because of the emotional blackmail.

Some here know I'm older and think that I know nothing, but one of the things I've learned is that emotional blackmail only works for so long .

The problem for the ipoders relative on the better races which sell out is that demand to enter those races is so far beyond what Ipoders can imagine. Races that sellout in days or even a few months will hardly notice the exodus. and there isn't a capacity to take them all elsewhere. Races cannot just grow dramatically. Problems do not happen in linear fashion and New races take time to plan. Big races take years to plan.

The ipoders have all the détente they need. Go to the other races already. The sport needs you to do that. You don't want to run with those that don't want you do you?

What is it about "no soup for you' that you don't understand.

The only reason many RDs seem timid on the issue is because it's natural to get nervous when somebody says they won't come to their race. Most RDs don't talk to other RDs because the RDs have other lives. They don't study what is going because they have all they can handle. There are those that know what is going and there is no compromising with a safety issue. It's not the hearing, both ears, one ear, no ear whatever. It's the distraction and that is liability issue in the end.

Theoretically, you could compromise with a small crowd, but large crowds are not all adults (as to how they act) or responsible as some silly posters like to say. ("we are all adults") what a clueless statement. Yes. that means that a minority is going to spoil it for the majority. That is what happen everyday. How many lawsuits is acceptable?

An RD can not shield themselves from negligence (real or imagined) claimed by those that would sue or have the authority to refuse insurance coverage. There is no wording on a waiver to provide a shield. Wouldn't you think that there is enough legal power available to races to find wording for a shielding waiver. It's also a double edged sword when the law suit involves a ''road'. Once that happens the police become a major obstacle in allowing the same course, the same time slot or even the same size of the race field.

This isn't just about runner attendance. There are more marbles in this game that have nothing to do with pleasing the runners.

It's not a democracy.

Last time I looked this IS a Democracy. Rules can be changed or revised. That's what we're trying to do here. It happens all the time. That's not a bad thing, is it?

That's how a rule becomes a rule to begin with. Someone writes it down and it becomes a rule, we're just trying to get those involved to use the eraser end of the pencil and revise it.

I will not accept "BUT YOU CAN'T" when the least I can do is try.

WayneD

"Age is an Attitude"

<<<<<<<<<<< we say just try to get some coherent common ground with this crabby coot..give it a shot

I would imagine that many areas of things might be seen as "incoherent" by someone who hasn't any knowledge or experience in the subject. Sort of like looking at all the pieces of a puzzle and never having seen the box cover. I've seen the puzzle and know that the pieces come together to form the picture I've seen. You don't like the picture, so you and others take out of context pieces and claim them to gosple on some imagined end result. Rave on.

Again, not seeing something doesn't mean it wasn't and isn't there.

Your ability to see many things in a race is very limited to the time and space of where you are or were in the event. You move along with it. You can not, short of hearing about a major incident after the event, know that happened in many minor incidents ahead or behind you.

Add to a frustration that comes from wanting a common ground to be a narrow issue and it's not surprising that you've accused some folks of all sorts of stuff that sounds like it came out of bottle within the last hour or two.

The problem all along is that the ipod issue is a multi-headed hydra. It effects many things, most of them negative. The only good thing about the ipod is that it has and does get more people off the couch.

You've limited your platform to a position of "the ipod is good for some, so it must be accepted by all regardless of the reasons to the contrary". Way more folks than me aren't buying it. In fact the race managements aren't buying anything. They are already established, they have experience and often experience is something that doesn't play well with those that wish they had the knowledge.

So I'm a know it all. Thank you.

I'm sure you feel frustrated that the anti-ipod folks are not just opening the doors to the details as if you were the IRS demanding an audit. Like I said, they have better things to do and not enough time most often to even do that. They don't see it as a democracy.

Jay: there are no data for the things you are asking..research away... I encourage you to reduce this to data.. without that data... I see this as a fundamental resistance by many to accept someone elses viewpoint...I have discussed and conceded about every rational point made by those who chose not to wear Ipods..most of my responses to the trio have risen from the humour created when you engage a a few people Like NHsenior who like to hear themselves talk.... who immediately adopt a superior position ..let you know how little you know.. how dense you are... what a twit, idiot, etc..(please reread his posts if you think I am making this up)...this type of gentlemanly discussion tactic overtime breeds resistance in anyone seeking to just exchange ideas....and I admit (I assure you NH that you would drive anyone to drink, but I am stone cold sober) I have pushed the bounds of propriety..but if he can constantly dish it , he can take a little ribbing too..you can ask and conjole NHsenior if you like ..he adds nothing provocative (other than his insults) than I can discern or that he hasn't repeated ad infintum..other RD's have weighed in pro ipod and he has told "them" how little they know, how second rate their races where.. his assertion that rd's don't talk to each other is perhaps again his own personal opinion..they perhaps have experienced his brand of discussion and have done what I am doing..not paying attention

As to inviting Ipoders to leave racing ..you don't need us or our money..I would check with the race sponsers on that one..I don't think they would agree..I will be racing right along next to you NHSENIOR..or at least at the start line... Happy running

The name calling continues. If Nhsenior stops writing you will not have any one to beat up on and abuse. To bad this site doesn't have someone to monitor the name calling. This could be a two way debate. Right now it's a group of thugs beating up on one person willing to stand up for what he believes. Mr. Magoo, Crabby coot, misplaced most of your marbles, getting too much fiber in your diet?? Nice talk!

<<<<< As to inviting Ipoders to leave racing

There you go again, being dishonest in what others have said. "IF" you learn to read, you might find you understand what is being said to you. Of course then you foreqo the opportunity to deliberately misquote with the goal of trying to make some poor innocent poster look bad. ..very big grin....

I said "Go to the other races already". Meaning, quit whining and go vote with your feet as you keep threatening to do.

<<<...you have a rule being discussed here that even the rulemakers cant agree on or enforce...the majority of runners won't abide by..and the rule setters say show me evidence that we are not wrong

Why would the rule makers take their time to prove anything to you. You want in, you do the leg work. That's how most stuff works elsewhere, except in Wonderland, that is.