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16498 Views 84 Replies Latest reply: Feb 24, 2008 4:57 PM by Jimmy_D_Jarhead RSS Go to original post 1 2 3 4 5 6 Previous Next
  • lenzlaw Community Moderator 10,389 posts since
    Jan 18, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    60. Feb 23, 2008 6:00 AM (in response to FormerBAM)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

    I already PMed you this morning.  So there!





    Len

  • DCtoPgh Community Moderator 3,033 posts since
    Aug 15, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    61. Feb 23, 2008 6:04 AM (in response to MCM Ron)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

     

    MCM Ron wrote:

     

    That said, I think Stan has a valid point with respect to Kat's response, where she said that he was wrong on several points and wanted to address it offline.  I think perhaps a better choice of words would have been to say that she +disagrees +with Stan on several points and would prefer to discuss via PM.  To simply call him out +publically +as being wrong on several things, well, I could see how that would be rather aggravating to Stan.  And for those of us who don't know better but trust Kat's opinion, we don't know exactly which points to be skeptical about.

     

     

     

     

     

    Both you and Len are absolutely right, I could have been better with my wording. I have pneumonia and I'm grumpy... I'll watch what I say next time!! Sorry guys!





    I do today what you won't, so tomorrow I do what you can't.


    My Blog | i2P

  • RKHII83 Pro 166 posts since
    Oct 1, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    62. Feb 23, 2008 6:04 AM (in response to FormerBAM)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

     

    Hi Former -

     

     

    I retired a few years ago after 24 years in Special Operations in the Navy including two command tours so I do have the experience and some perspective.

     

     

    First off, congratulations to you on raising a son who felt compelled to serve his country.  The speaks volumes about the kind of person BOTH of you are and the character that was instilled in him.

     

     

    That said, I offer this observation.  I can understand the outright refusal.  Some conditions are quantifiable like vision loss.  The exact magnitude of it can be measured and corrected with glasses or contacts or surgery.  ADD/ADHD can't easily be measured.  In the case of the Army, they have to take the conservative approach.  Let say your son were to get into the Rangers - the Army's elite.  (Although with a 97 ASVAB he'd be better off in nuclear power - submarines). 

     

     

    Now take it further - his unit is deployed and gets into a real crappy situation and he misplaces or runs out  of meds.  Even the remote possibility of a lack of focus or a split second wandering of attention can and has jeopardized missions and gotten people killed.  I was/am a SEAL and we did some things that were literally timed to the tenth of a second.  There is no margin for error.

     

     

    In your son's case, he may not even have ADD/ADHD.  But since he was treated for it (Adderall), DOD must take the conservative approach and refuse his service.  Especially at the accession level.  There simply is not enough money in the budget to spend on screening potential service men and women.  It would be different if your son was already in and either 'developed' or was diagnosed with ADD/ADHD.  He would be taken care of - likely put in a non-combat job, but still allowed to serve.

     

     

    I can understand your frustration and anger, but please try and look at it from my perspective.  We planned all our missions and determined acceptable levels of risk - but the levels of risk we would accept were based on known, measurable and defined quantities.  Unfortunately, ADD/ADHD is too much of an unknown as it varies from person to person, time of the day, stress level, level of activity around you, etc.  That is far too much of an unknown quantity and as such introduces unacceptable levels of risk.

     

     

    I don't know if that helped - it is my opinion, but an opinion based on 24 years of experience, including 9 combat tours (52 months total time) to Afghanistan and Iraq.

     

     

    Take some comfort in the fact that your son wants to serve - that is very admirable.  We would have far less problems in this country if more people raised their children like you raised yours.  I am quite sincere when I say "Thank you" for doing so.

     

     

  • RKHII83 Pro 166 posts since
    Oct 1, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    63. Feb 23, 2008 6:17 AM (in response to MCM Ron)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

     

    .................But I think it wrong to focus on that one hypothetical situation. Overall, said soldier is there because he wants to fight for the good of his country. He will carry out his missions to the best of his ability, as any other soldier does................

     

     

     

     

     

    Morning Ron - I am late to this thread and didn't see a post where you stated you did or didn't have any military experience, no worries.

     

     

    I am recently retired, 24 years in the Navy, 20 as a SEAL, including two command tours.  I have to respectfully disagree with your statement that it is wrong to focus on the hypothetical.  That is what you must focus on because it is the hypothetical situation that jeopardizes mission completion and gets people killed.  If you haven't planned for it, when it happens, you can't deal with it.  All of our soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen are expected to carry out their mission to the best of their ability - but ADD/ADHD introduces and unknown quantity.  That quantity certainly ranges from zero - no impact up to a loss of focus that occurs at a critical time e.g. - hitting the shaped charge to take down the door to allow building entry and hostile take down.  There are hundreds of events on any given combat mission that MUST occur at the exact moment in time they are planned for - we would literally time elements of our ops down to the tenth of a second.  There simply is no margin for error - nor is there the ability to successfully plan and accomplish missions with service member who may (or may not) have a condition that introduces unknown levels of risk.

     

     

    Just my opinion.

     

     

    Be Well.

     

     

  • Jimmy_D_Jarhead We're Not Worthy 4,477 posts since
    Dec 15, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    65. Feb 23, 2008 6:27 AM (in response to FormerBAM)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

    Nita says it well.  I am in a support role in the Corps now even though I have not always been in that support role.  The ideas you are talking about are spot on for you elitist but then again the amount of training you all have to go through with and without meds is amazing in and of itself.  I understand your points wholeheartedly but Nita is on to something.  The fields her son is looking at in the Air Force will not have him seeing true gunslinging get the bad guys combat without having some specialized training.  Oh and my support goes with being called to support the combat Marine.  Not arguing just trying to be supportive to help a good kid get to serve his country.  It is an honor that a young man (woman) would volunteer under these conditions.  There is a reason you stayed for 24 years and chose your path.  Oh and we just kicked a kid out that tried to commit suicide and was found to be fraudulent in that he did not disclose the 10+ joints and 1 line of coke a day high school drug problem.  Pick our poison.

     

     

                   Jimmy

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    This place is like home!!!!

  • Jimmy_D_Jarhead We're Not Worthy 4,477 posts since
    Dec 15, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    67. Feb 23, 2008 6:51 AM (in response to FormerBAM)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.
    FormerBAM wrote:
    DCtoPgh wrote:

    Both you and Len are absolutely right, I could have been better with my wording. I have pneumonia and I'm grumpy... I'll watch what I say next time!! Sorry guys!No apologies necessary, Kat. We all can be more careful with the words we choose at times. Rest and heal, get over that pneumonia, and get back to running!

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    And Jimmy, the guy y'all just kicked out, guess he followed that don't-ask/don't-tell policy that I'm now wishing my son had followed. So much for honesty

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    I am just saying that if I had my choices the obvious one is a kid that may or may not need a minor dose of meds years ago when it was a societal norm to administer that paticular med to the masses ( kinda like the new pomegranit juice craze) or a kid that needed true meds but became an addict instead I think the DOD itself would choose your son. I know if the DOD knew about the other he would never have been allowed without extensive waivers but I am still a bit miffed that if your son is not getting his chance to serve his country. Jimmy






    This place is like home!!!!

  • RKHII83 Pro 166 posts since
    Oct 1, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    68. Feb 23, 2008 6:54 AM (in response to FormerBAM)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

     

    Former -

     

     

    And now to my next thought.......

     

     

    If your son is truly set on serving, assemble all of the medical documentation that you have that clearly and completely outlines his ADD history (or lack thereof).  Diagnosis, diagnosis basis, treatment, follow-up, testing and evaluation history, etc. from Day 1 to present.  Make sure it is entirely complete.  Obviously, the latest info would need to illustrate that either there is/was never any ADD/ADHD, or that there is no need for meds and/or continuing treatment.

     

     

    Then contact your Congressman AND state Senator and push hard to get in.  Constituent inquiries will end up at the Office of Legislative Affairs (OLA) and if your medical history 'proves' your case, your son will likely get to serve.

     

     

    And don't underestimate the importance of "support" MOSs and ratings.  The Good Lord knows we need Bos'n Mates, but when I come in on a helo holding the femoral vein of one of my guys pinched shut with my fingers, I want a corpsman opening the door, not a Bos'ns Mate.    

     

     

  • Jimmy_D_Jarhead We're Not Worthy 4,477 posts since
    Dec 15, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    69. Feb 23, 2008 7:05 AM (in response to RKHII83)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.
    RKHII83 wrote:

    >                

    >                Former -

    >

    >                And now to my next thought.......

    >

    >

    >                If your son is truly set on serving, assemble all of the medical documentation that you have that clearly and completely outlines his ADD history (or lack thereof). Diagnosis, diagnosis basis, treatment, follow-up, testing and evaluation history, etc. from Day 1 to present. Make sure it is entirely complete. Obviously, the latest info would need to illustrate that either there is/was never any ADD/ADHD, or that there is no need for meds and/or continuing treatment.

    >

    >

    >                Then contact your Congressman AND state Senator and push hard to get in. Constituent inquiries will end up at the Office of Legislative Affairs (OLA) and if your medical history 'proves' your case, your son will likely get to serve.

    >

    >

    >                And don't underestimate the importance of "support" MOSs and ratings. The Good Lord knows we need Bos'n Mates, but when I come in on a helo holding the femoral vein of one of my guys pinched shut with my fingers, I want a corpsman opening the door, not a Bos'ns Mate.;)

                     

     

     

                   Now we are talking but why make a Bos'ns Mate when you have a more then competant Corpsman.  This is why I love this board becasue the politician approach was over looked on my part which amazes me becasue I am a fan of that approach.  I am now an AG type for you Navy folk that would be wasting my true brain power chipping away at the paint but instead I have a very important role when mother nature has her nickers in bunch.  Think about it this way.  The Navy just made some serious history shooting down that satelite and there in the brief was one of my counterparts ( a Navy Chief) okay probably a Commander because they like to get in the public forum, puttin out a solid forecast to include space weather(which we do).  So never underestimate the power of a non combat realted job field that will more then likely rarely find its way into a harmful environment.  RKH1183 some great points.  I hope my responses don't have any negative vibe because I have none.  I hate not being face to face when debating and talking about touchy subjects.  Fair winds and follopwing seas Shipmate.

     

     

                   Jimmy

     

     

                   Oh and by the way I get to say that as I am a golden shellback and blue nose!

    |






    This place is like home!!!!

  • NE-Xamax Amateur 8 posts since
    Feb 20, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    70. Feb 23, 2008 12:02 PM (in response to Jimmy_D_Jarhead)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

     

    I could not have provided a more accurate reply as RKHII83 has.  Excellent post with all the details Nita needs...!  Sail away...

     

     

    "The winds and waves are always on the side of the ablest navigators."

     

     

  • JerryX Legend 851 posts since
    Jan 18, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    71. Feb 23, 2008 12:15 PM (in response to NE-Xamax)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

    let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be..





    Happy Running!

  • Jimmy_D_Jarhead We're Not Worthy 4,477 posts since
    Dec 15, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    72. Feb 23, 2008 4:48 PM (in response to NE-Xamax)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

    |

    NE-Xamax wrote:

    I could not have provided a more accurate reply as RKHII83 has. Excellent post with all the details Nita needs...! Sail away...

     

    "The winds and waves are always on the side of the ablest navigators."

     

     

     

     

    Cool points to RKII83!

     

     






    This place is like home!!!!

  • jersey-will Pro 87 posts since
    Feb 5, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    73. Feb 24, 2008 6:59 AM (in response to Jimmy_D_Jarhead)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

    Wow, and I thought Giants v.Cowboys got heated. lol

  • thefirecat Community Moderator 2,779 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    74. Feb 24, 2008 7:43 AM (in response to FormerBAM)
    Re: The Department of Defense is full of sh!t.

    All right, everybody, don't make me come in here and turn this thread around! If y'all don't keep playing nice, I will send you all right to your rooms WITH NO COOKIES! And no beer, either!

     

    Frankly, if the military wouldn't accept anybody who'd ever been on Ritalin or Adderall, they'd have some pretty slim pickings for the next ten years. Whether or not this is a good thing isn't the point here. The point is that BAM believes a mistake has been made in this specific instance, and she wants our advice in how to deal with it.

     

    While I do want to extend a genuine welcome to the newcomers to our particular corner of (sur)reality, I'd also like all of us to consider the possibility that first posts are just that: first impressions. We aren't a particularly clique-y bunch herewe'll extend a beer to anyone, regardless of ideology or football rivalrybut (much like any family, including the military) when someone unfamiliar comes in, our primary instinct is to protect our own. While this tactic does save lives, it can also cause collateral damage.

     

    That's a thought for both newcomers who post their strong opinions in an unfamiliar environment before we've gotten to know you, AND for us lifers who might sometimes get a little trigger-happy because of our love for friend and family.

     

    This here board is a PEACETIME OPERATION. That means we should ALL ask questions first, and shoot second. Not the other way around.





    God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy.

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