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5642 Views 55 Replies Latest reply: Feb 26, 2008 10:12 AM by homeskoolyZ RSS Go to original post 1 2 3 4 Previous Next
  • bigapplepie Legend 2,455 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    45. May 20, 2006 11:58 AM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

    quote:


    Originally posted by CSuzette:

    As I just posted elsewhere, TE increased his 4 mile pace by 50 seconds per mile in just one year. And, he is a long-time runner with established times, etc. The only real variation was his diet, which resulted in a large weight loss, which then allowed better training.

    The proof is in the pudding.


     



    My 5 mile pace has decreased by 50 seconds per mile in the last year and 3 minutes per mile in the last 2 years. Its called training.

  • bigapplepie Legend 2,455 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    46. May 20, 2006 12:19 PM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

    OK, let me ask something.

    Anyone can feel free to answer.

    How much glycogen does a long-term low/no carbers body store compared to the 2,000 kcal average?

  • Ice Cream Rookie 548 posts since
    Dec 28, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    47. May 20, 2006 1:32 PM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

    quote:


    Originally posted by Iontach:

    Trust me: I'm a doctor.


     



    1. I do not necessarily believe anything people claim on an anonymous board.

    2. For a doctor, you sure have a lot of free time on your hands.

    3.  experienced MDs are perfectly aware of how people's interpretations of facts can be completely unscientific.

  • bigapplepie Legend 2,455 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    48. May 20, 2006 3:06 PM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

    quote:


    Originally posted by bigapplepie:

    OK, let me ask something.

    Anyone can feel free to answer.

    How much glycogen does a long-term low/no carbers body store compared to the 2,000 kcal average?


     



    The reason I ask is because:

    quote:



    During times of energy abundance (eg, after a meal), the liver takes up glucose and nutrients that it can convert into glucose (

    primarily amino acids, galactose, fructose, lactate, pyruvate, and glycerol—but not fatty acids

    ) from the bloodstream and converts these nutrients to glycogen. Conversely, when blood glucose levels fall, the liver catabolizes glycogen to glucose via a series of exquisitely regulated hydrolytic reactions referred to as glycogenolysis. Glucose is then available for delivery to tissues that cannot synthesize the carbohydrate in significant quantities (eg, brain, muscle, erythrocyte).


     

    (source: emedicine.com)[/URL" target="_blank">

    As the liver converts amino acids glycogen, why would a low-carb dieter necessarily store less glycogen, in the long-term, than a high-carb dieter.

  • Don Brock Rookie 91 posts since
    Oct 30, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    49. May 21, 2006 5:53 AM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

    quote:


    Originally posted by CSuzette:

    Oh, I am truly interested in understanding this stuff. So much so that I read every word of your post. I do wish I had more of a science background...as you know my degree is a BA.

    But, my sister majored in exercise physiology. So, I will ask her a bit more about the significance of producing more ATP per carbon atom.

    So, I have found that during recovery I am definitely missing something. Even after eating a huge breakfast. I can feel the migraine coming...but if I take liberal doses of L-Glutamine I can stave off the headache.

    Now I understand from a study that was done that L-Glutamine taken during exercise can increase endurance in exercisers. But, it is unclear why to me. The same study said that L-Glutamine can be converted to glucose, but without the need for insulin. But, I also know that protein is not converted to glucose unless the body can't get it elsewhere. And, since I eat plenty of meat and have plenty of muscle I just don't believe that the L-Glutamine is 100 percent converting to glucose. But, I can't be sure that some of it isn't. So, it part of my ongoing search for answers. And, so you could be partially correct about the glucose, but I don't know that for sure !http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/smile.gif|src=http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/smile.gif|border=0!


     



    You're a bidness major with a major misunderstanding of basic biology. As I've said about 100 times before - you and TE need to take a basic biology course. Of course, being the nice guy I am, I am offering the following lesson free....

    NO OXYGEN = NO KREBS CYCLE

    In other words (unlike what TE got off that ridiculous website a while back), fats don't function if you aren't in the aerobic zone. This means you will have an automatic performance-celling to any running you do. Moreover, the catabolism of fats is far slower than that of glucose (B-oxidation is slower, and you don't get the benefit of glycosis in the cytoplasm as you do with glucose), so even in the presence of oxygen you will be limited in your performance.

    There was also a question in this thread about glycogen. Although this is rather complex in this situation, the basic fact is that you can create glycogen from pyruvic acid. Normally, this is produced by the break down of glucose. Of course if you don't have enough glucose in your body (say from a low-carb diet) you can always create it from the deamination of amino acids (i.e. protein). Of course this comes primarily from muscle tissue and also creates NH3 (ammonia) in the process...not what I call a healthy thing.

    ----



    Ginsberg's Theorems:
    You can't win.
    You can't break even.
    You can't even quit the game.

    Who Me?[/URL" target="_blank">

  • bigapplepie Legend 2,455 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    50. May 21, 2006 10:12 AM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

    Thanks Dan,

    So if your body is carb deprived, it will effectively break down amino acids, that would normally be used to build and maintain muscle, to create fuel.

  • Iontach Rookie 1,340 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    51. May 21, 2006 11:47 AM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about theseOriginally posted by Ice Cream:

    1. I do not necessarily believe anything people claim on an anonymous board.

    2. For a doctor, you sure have a lot of free time on your hands.

    3. experienced MDs are perfectly aware of how people's interpretations of facts can be completely unscientific.

    [/QUOTE

    You'll notice that I didn't claim to be a medical doctor. Surely "trust me, I'm a doctor" is sufficiently clichéed for you to interpret it as nuanced.

    But if you need proof of my bona fides, then I'd be more than delighted to provide them. My address is in my profile.

  • Don Brock Rookie 91 posts since
    Oct 30, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    52. Dec 21, 2007 6:45 PM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

    quote:


    Originally posted by bigapplepie:

    Thanks Dan,

    So if your body is carb deprived, it will effectively break down amino acids, that would normally be used to build and maintain muscle, to create fuel.


     



    I should clarify my post a bit, as it is a bit complex. Muscle wasting will definitely happen if you are starving yourself. However, for a normal couch potato on one of these insane diets, the use of amino acids would no doubt be minimized as they will be able to use ketones as an alternative energy source. The brain can burn ketones after levels rise high enough, but it is interesting to note that low-carb diets were used prviously to treat epylipsy because nerve function slows in the presence of ketones.

    They may not even lose much muscle as any protein lost would be more than replaced in their diet. However, the basic fact is that the body's main task is to provide energy to sustain itself. The body prefers glucose and will be trying to manufacture it as best it can. Part of this quest will involve the break down of protiens and the creation of NH3 (ammonia), which is what I point out. As ammonia is toxic to the body I find it another reason to avoid these low-carb diets.

    edited to add: I think if people read the posts from Harry Trotter they will find all the information they need to understand why low-carb, and especially no-carbs is a bad idea for athletes.


    ----



    Ginsberg's Theorems:
    You can't win.
    You can't break even.
    You can't even quit the game.

    Who Me?[/URL" target="_blank">


    [http://This message has been edited by Don Brock (edited May-21-2006).|http://This message has been edited by Don Brock (edited May-21-2006).]

    [http://This message has been edited by Don Brock (edited May-21-2006).|http://This message has been edited by Don Brock (edited May-21-2006).]

  • bigapplepie Legend 2,455 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    53. May 21, 2006 4:20 PM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

    Just googling some low carb web-sites, I see a lot of them quoting a study by Dr Donald Layman with headlines such as:
    "Can a High-Protein Diet Help You Lose Weight?"
    "Livin' La Vida Low-Carb"

    A lot of these websites do not make the following clear:
    - The study was carried out on overweight sedentary women
    - The diet uses was 40/30/30 carbs/protein/fat
    - The Doctor does not recommend that people get more than 30% of their daily intake from fats or more than 35% from protein.
    - In fact, this is the standard ratio for "fat-loss" used most recent diet books.

    The Atkins hails Layman with the headline "A recent study confirms that consuming a diet high in protein rather than one high in carbs makes it easier to shed fat while preserving muscle."

    In fact Layman calls the Atkins diet "nutritionally unsound."

  • homeskoolyZ Rookie 62 posts since
    Jan 11, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    54. Jan 15, 2008 2:23 PM (in response to bigapplepie)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

     

    The Atkins diet is a classic example of fat-people-will-believe-any-promise-to-make-them-thin syndrome.

     

     

     

     

     

  • homeskoolyZ Rookie 62 posts since
    Jan 11, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    55. Feb 26, 2008 10:12 AM (in response to CSuzette)
    Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    CSuzette wrote:

    So, TE is able to increase his mile time over 4 miles by an astonishing 50 seconds per mile in one year.  Can it be possible that no one is wondering whether his diet made it possible?

     

    TE also has admitted to increasing his training in parallel with his diet change.  Thus he's rendered himself a non-experiment.

     

     

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