Marathon Pacing Help!! ...

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12 Replies Last post: Dec 25, 2007 3:56 PM by kcwoodhead

kcwoodhead

355 posts since
Oct 18, 2007

Dec 20, 2007 2:09 PM

Marathon Pacing Help!!

I need help coming up with some sort of "plan" for my upcoming marathon (Houston 1/13/08).

It will be marathon #7 for me, with #'s 1-6 ranging from 5:55 to 5:12. The 5:12 was in Houston in 07. I ran Chicago in 07 as well, but I'm just not thinking the 5:54 there is really of any use for helping me out here! I know I'm faster, but really have no idea how much faster.

Here is a little more data:

Feb '07 10k PR: 59:47

Nov '07 10k PR: 54:37

Dec '06 50k PR (40 degrees): 7:48

Dec '07 50k PR (80 degrees): 6:33

Oct '07 1/2 Ironman Run: 2:24

Most recent track workout was 2000, 1600, 1200, 800, 400, 800, 1200, 1600, 2000 all at T-Pace (actually a little faster that T-pace, which is ~8:55 min/mile for me) with ~90 seconds rest. Workout was challenging, but I did not have a problem maintaining pace throughout.

Average mpw has probably been ~25, two highest weeks will be around 40 mpw (5 and 3 weeks out from the marathon).

Long run pace is usually 11:00-12:00.

I do not really have any other races to gauge off of. I did a 25k race a month ago that did not go well (2:51), but I'm chalking that up to it being over 80 with high humidity that day and the fact it was race #3 in 3 weeks (half ironman, 25k trail race, then this 25k road race on consecutive weekends).

I run and race long distances using a 9/1 formula (run 9 minutes/walk 1 minute) and plan to do this in the marathon. I know most of what happens on race day will be directly related to how I feel, but I figure I should at least have some idea of a game plan before I toe the line. Right now I'm tentatively thinking about aiming for a 2:12-2:15 first half and going from there, but that is still a total shot in the dark. I could show up and run 1 mile and say "no way that's happening" or "ok, that wasn't that bad."

Any advice/previous experiences/help would be greatly appreciated!

Thisshit Isgettingold

7 posts since
Dec 20, 2007

1. Dec 20, 2007 5:14 PM

in response to: kcwoodhead

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

For me, the McMillan Prediction calculator has been pretty accurate. http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

I plugged in your 10K time and it suggested a 4:16 marathon. Given your limited mileage, and your relatively slow long run pace, I wouldn't go with this number. If you run the same pace as your 50K you'd be at about a 5:30 marathon. If you use the double your half marathon time and add 20 minutes, you'd be at about 5:10 based on your half IM. Personally, I would think that 5 hours is easily doable since your Half Mary time came in a HIM. I think that 4:30 could be possible, given your training paces, but at only 25 mpw now (the race is in Jan, right?), you'd have to have a great day. Houston is a fast course, and you have the experience to judge your effort against the distance, so I'd say shoot for the stars.

tri_coach06

662 posts since
Aug 14, 2007

2. Dec 20, 2007 5:30 PM

in response to: kcwoodhead

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

I read the whole pst and then hit the part wher your Gallowaling and asked myself WHY. I know all the ins and outs on it so I won't argue it. However, in your case, I would drop the speed work if you plan on walking. I really don't want to start a Gallo thread so I'm not gonna keep on it.

Since you asked the boards opinion, I will say RUN the whole thing and you will see a PR.

If you would like to discuss this off site you can PM me.

kcwoodhead

355 posts since
Oct 18, 2007

3. Dec 20, 2007 6:49 PM

in response to: Thisshit Isgettingold

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

I have used every calculator out there, but am aware I was overtrained for the 10k and most likely "undertrained" for the marathon by the calculator's standards.

Oh, and the 50k was a trail race if that helps make any more sense

There is one calculator I have used lately that does take into account the your avg mpw of your 2 highest weeks, bike mileage, and years running the disance and it gives me a 4:30.

I guess I won't know what I'm capable of until I just get out there and try, but this is definitely a new position for me to be in!

kylemcm

265 posts since
Aug 16, 2007

4. Dec 21, 2007 4:20 PM

in response to: kcwoodhead

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

You know, I could have helped pace you. But, I switched to the half mary. I could have made the distance but, I didn't feel that I had enough miles in to run what I wanted to for the full. Hmm, I could have stayed in the full and helped you stay on pace. Oh well, I'll just go set myself a new Half PR.

My sister is running her first 5K that day. I've been "coaching" her a bit the past few weeks. BTW, what was the name of that restaurant that you recommened last year? Everyone wants to go back there again.

kcwoodhead

355 posts since
Oct 18, 2007

5. Dec 21, 2007 7:47 PM

in response to: kylemcm

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

Ooh - it is Collina's on Richmond. I may be back this year too!

You will feel like a very smart man at mile 9 when you do a nice little U-turn and head towards the finish line. Me, on the other hand...who knows!?

LeftRightRepeat

1,618 posts since
Aug 16, 2007

6. Dec 21, 2007 7:56 PM

in response to: kcwoodhead

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

What do you want to do? What's gonna make YOU feel like you "did it" after the race?

Would 5:00 make you happy? Pick any number down to, say, 4:30.

Now... Fixate on that. Nothing else matters. Figure the pace per mile. For 4:30 it's about 10:15 per mile. Now... Fixate on THAT. 10:15. Ten fifteen.

Get out there and run mile one at ten fifteen. Run mile 2 at 10:15. Lather, rinse, repeat. 10:15. Mile 17? 10:15. Focus. Mile 19 - ten fifteen. Concentrate. Mile 23 should be 10 minutes and fifteen seconds. Not hurting - just 10:15. Not faster - never faster! Ten fifteen. Focus. Mile 26? Yup. 10. 15. It's all about focus.

If you focus, it will happen.

kcwoodhead

355 posts since
Oct 18, 2007

7. Dec 24, 2007 11:19 AM

in response to: LeftRightRepeat

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

Darn it, I think you are right. Hmm...Gees....

I think I'm going to go for it. I will never know if I don't try. 4:30 it is. SCARY. Unless I have some life-threatening event happen during the race, or you know, record high temps, I would hope that I would still end up with a PR and hopefully finally that elusive finish time that starts with a 4, not a 5!

Using this fun calculator (http://www.runcalculator.com/), which I actually like better than a lot of the others (because it takes into account training volume), I get a 4:26 marathon time for a flat course. Yikes. Time for me to face reality!

I'm just going to continue my cold front dance for the next 3 weeks, but not too hard...I wouldn't want to mess up my taper.

crossed_out

3 posts since
Dec 24, 2007

8. Dec 24, 2007 10:00 PM

in response to: kcwoodhead

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

youre on your 7th marathon and still "gallow walking"??? just makes no sense, 6 marathons without breaking 5 hours, im gonna be blunt, there must be something seriously wrong with your training, if youre a triathlete and only running 3 days a week, you need to get that up to 5-6 days, maybe do your long runs closer to marathon pace, like only 30 seconds slower

pcsronbo006

1,584 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

9. Dec 25, 2007 3:09 PM

in response to: crossed_out

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

crossed_out wrote:
youre on your 7th marathon and still "gallow walking"???

If I understand the gallowalking theory, and I've done "some" reading on it as DW has been using it and I've been helping make her plan, I don't think marathon experience and "still gallowalking" have anything to do with each other. YES it is most commonly used by those who cannot run the distance ala newbies, but the general theory is that but introducing those walk breaks you can run faster for the run + walk period than you could for run only, and at less physical "expense" than running straight. Continual pounding takes a serious toll on the body, and some people simple do not have the constitution for it.

Me, I don't like it. I've tried it. I prefer to run slower but constant. But I'm pretty hearty. But DW has joint issues and she found this a great way to improve her overall speed.

So anyway.... I think your idea is "hey, why don't you consider running the whole thing" - but it was more expressed as a slam.

pcsronbo006

1,584 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

10. Dec 25, 2007 3:11 PM

in response to: kcwoodhead

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

kcwoodhead wrote:

I think I'm going to go for it. I will never know if I don't try. 4:30 it is. SCARY. Unless I have some life-threatening event happen during the race, or you know, record high temps, I would hope that I would still end up with a PR and hopefully finally that elusive finish time that starts with a 4, not a 5!

Using this fun calculator (http://www.runcalculator.com/), which I actually like better than a lot of the others (because it takes into account training volume), I get a 4:26 marathon time for a flat course. Yikes. Time for me to face reality!

I think this is a mental, not physical hurdle.

GO FOR IT. Listen to your body, if it says you're getting hurt, pull back - otherwise KEEP GOING and see where it will take you.

I'm still on the quest for puking at the finish line of a race. Not there... yet... so I don't think I'm racing to my ability yet!

kcwoodhead

355 posts since
Oct 18, 2007

11. Dec 25, 2007 3:46 PM

in response to: pcsronbo006

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

Thanks for that!

I know people that run even 4/1's who have been running for years, and most came into it after running marathons straight through. It is just what works for me now. I'm not saying it will always be that way, but it is how I have trained this time around and I certainly can't just throw that out the door come race day. That would be a total recipe for distaster.

Also, for myself, I have had IT band problems for 5 years. I've finally made some progress in getting over it. Both my MD and PT said the #1 reason I'm having problems is because of my slow pace. Thanks, right?!?! Well, one solution to improve my pace, and thus my gait, is to run/walk. The tiny bit faster that I'm running while taking the walk breaks makes a huge difference in how much my knee likes me.

I really noticed a difference when I brought it down to 4/1s for my last half ironman. It was the least IT band pain I had had in years. Ideally I will get to a point where I can run straight through at the slightly increased pace without needing to walk to maintain that pace, but I'm not there yet.

And yes, I realize something wasn't going well, so I changed my training this year. I have improved as a result of these changes. That is what my original post is all about...I'm faster now, but I don't know how much faster, so how do I know exactly what I'm capable of come race day?

kcwoodhead

355 posts since
Oct 18, 2007

12. Dec 25, 2007 3:56 PM

in response to: crossed_out

Re: Marathon Pacing Help!!

I appreciate your input, but frankly, I'm pretty happy with my running career thus far. I'm also happy with my triathlon career. Not everyone is built to run fast and there are some people who will never, ever break 5 hours, but continue to do it because they love it.

I choose not to run 5-6 days a week because I choose to swim and bike as well. I also choose to have a life outside of training. I did not ask how to run the fastest marathon I could possibly run. Clearly there are many, many changes I could make to greatly improve my running, but at what cost? Most of us here in MS are choosing to make sacrafices here and there to get a balance that leaves us happy, and that balance is different for everyone.

See my previous post re: "gallow walking." I actually did not start gallow walking until my 3rd marathon season. It is what is right for me right now. Is it right for you? Obviously not. Is it going to be right for me next year? Maybe so, maybe not. I did not ask to be judged, especially 3 weeks out from a marathon, when there is absolutely no time to change anything that I have done up to this point.

Point being I'm happy with where I am and I plan to be in this sport (running, triathlons, etc) for a long time. If that means I only improve my PR by 5 minutes a year, so be it. That means I have a long way to go before I start slowing down.

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Dec 20, 2007 2:09 PM

Marathon Pacing Help!!

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