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14 Replies Last post: Apr 30, 2008 1:24 PM by TeejWI

TeejWI

37 posts since
Apr 14, 2008

Apr 14, 2008 6:38 PM

Should I be concerned?

OK...I've done some searching and I saw a similar thread posted a few months back with a "don't worry too much" set of answers...but I feel I ought to follow up a bit because I think my own situation is just...weird.

OK...first of all, yes, I know I'm in pathetic shape and that is probably the answer to this...but...

Vitals:

38, male, no regular exercise for quite some time, overweight (190...I'm aiming for 165).

I decided to try easing into running again last week and found it a bit easier than I thought (especially compared to recent attempts - see my "atypical newbie" thread). In short what I've run so far is:

4/6: ~1.5mi

4/9: ~ 1.66mi

4/12: 5k

4/14: 5k

Here's the catch. Before tonight's run, I picked up a heart monitor. At 38, the standard (yes, I know this can vary substantially) is MHR = 182, so the HM (Polar) wanted me to stay 115-155.

OK, so on my warmup walk I'm already into the 120s.

After warming up I start my current very slow jog (~ 13 minute pace or so) and it doesn't take long before it's cussing at me for busting 155. I'm hitting high 150s and low 160s in an easy jog. Not breathing hard - I could still be converstational without much difficulty. Nevertheless, I figure I'll try backing down a bit. Eventually (after about 2 reps) I got too frustrated at walking half and jogging half a lap...so I just kept jogging and stayed at 158-160.

Got to my last (450m) lap and was feeling pretty good so I kicked it up a notch and ran the last ~ 1.1 laps at a ~ 10 minute pace. This got my breathing into overdrive - depe breaths, 2 paces in, 2 paces out and my heart hit 181 on that lap. I backed off a bit at the end and crossed the line at 170.

Heart rate recoveyr was pretty good - I dropped 40 beats in the first minute.

Almost sounds to me like I'm aerobically OK, just don't have the "support plumbing" for running - when I have been exercising I've done more on exercise bikes than running. The 9 miles I've run in the past 8 days represents more running than I've done in 17 years.

Also, from about 1/4mi into the run up until...oh...1/4 my calves get pretty uncomfortable/stiff....but eventually it passes and the last mile or so was pretty much coasting for me (hence the final lap boost).

Should I do anything different or just keep running 2-3 miles at a crack until my muscle plumbing builds up...or....?

juststarted

761 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

1. Apr 14, 2008 6:43 PM

in response to: TeejWI

Re: Should I be concerned?

Hey there and welcome.

First - what are your goals?

Second - I wouldn't worry about heart rate. I would focus more on making sure you are enjoying the run.

Third - You really just need to take it easy and not so seriously right now. You have a ways to go before you have a solid base in place.

Fourth - What are you basing your HR calculation on? I am not an expert, but I do understand it is fairly subjective.

Fifth - back to taking it easy. For now, try to run at a consistent comfortable pace while base building. Increasing mileage and speed too fast could lead to injury which will not be so good.

Glad you are into running right now. Do you best to make sure it's sustainable.

Valerie

TeejWI

37 posts since
Apr 14, 2008

2. Apr 14, 2008 6:58 PM

in response to: juststarted

Re: Should I be concerned?

My goals are rather wide open.

For now I'm just looking to build the proverbial base and get into "good shape." For several summers I wanted (and tried, and failed) to just get into good enough shape to run 5k nonstop and that was as far as I planned. Now I burst that bubble pretty suddenly.

Beyond that I'm pretty wide open. I'd like to get to a point where it would be realistic (rather than the current ridiculous) for me to think about getting into marathon shape, but it's not like I'm burning to run a marathon.

The 182 MHR is coming from the arbitrary "220-age".

I'm happy sticking to running 5K at a crack for now - it's challenging enough to take some effort without leaving me feeling beat to **** the next day.

jcrule

196 posts since
Jan 9, 2001

3. Apr 14, 2008 10:04 PM

in response to: TeejWI

Re: Should I be concerned?

Okay, what most people here say to people who just take up running and start with such milage, is to slow down and not run so much. I would take a look at the C25K program. Most of us here have graduated from the program. It just builds your body up slowly so you don't get injured on your quest to build milage. From what you are showing for milage, it's probably too much for your bones since you said you hadn't been so active for a while.

Regaurding the HR. Oh my, I could go on and on about that. I think the only real way to know your MHR is to have one of those stress tests done...I think that's what they are called. Where you are on a treadmill and they steadily increase speed and incline till you are physically not able to run any longer. I had one of those done and (at age 28), my trainer would have me back off once I got to the 170's..Working out between 160 and 170 was perfect for me. You can go higher, it's just considered non-aerobic. I go non-aerobic if I want to get that extra workout in at the end.

So, in the end. Look at your HRM, listen to what your body is telling you, and then you can get a better idea of what range you work out best at. Because eventually you will have to work harder to get there!

juststarted

761 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

4. Apr 15, 2008 4:19 AM

in response to: TeejWI

Re: Should I be concerned?

Great! Like the next poster said, use the C25K plan. That will get you to a 5k. From there, you can move into a Hal HIgdon plan (or another plan of your choosing) for a 10k or even a half, but you will still need to have your base which should be about 15 miles/week. Personally, I wouldn't use a HRM at this point. I would run what feels comfortable.

dwm082

445 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

5. Apr 15, 2008 5:54 AM

in response to: juststarted

Re: Should I be concerned?

I agree with jcrule and juststarted. I know it's tempting to push the edge of the envelope and see just how far and how fast you can go quickly, but ease into things. Your cardiovascular fitness is probably pretty good from biking, so you likely won't have too much trouble with the breathing and such. The main concern at this point is giving your joints, tendons, and ligaments time to adjust to the new strain that they're experiencing.

As one of those who did too much too soon (with the recurring knee injury to show for it), I can't overemphasize the importance of easing into things.

I'm similar in age to you (36 and change, headed for 37 next month), so my max heart rate calculations aren't far off from yours. I did an interval run this morning with a max heart rate of 185. Going by the formula if I pushed any harder my heart should have exploded. I'm skeptical. As Val (juststarted) said, don't worry so much about the heart rate -- focus on the effort.

Don

TeejWI

37 posts since
Apr 14, 2008

6. Apr 15, 2008 9:56 AM

in response to: dwm082

Re: Should I be concerned?

Thanks for the input.

Thing is...while I agree that I am "pushing it"...I don't feel like I am.

I was sore after the first run...that's a given with pretty much any exercise....but it was just muscle soreness - not joints and such. Of course, I have recent memories of being thrashed far worse (heavily bruised arms, shoulders and ribs, along with a separated rib) from another recreational pursuit back in January.

After the 3rd run (5k) I was mildly sore...far less than after the first run...and neither was enough to keep me from doing anything.

Went home after last night's run, showered, finished up the taxes and I felt as if I could go run some more.

The only time running "bothers" me (as long as I keep the speed down) is for like the 2nd half mile where the lower legs stiffen up a bit. Once everything is good and warmed up, that fades away...I'm good.

While I am concerned with overuse injuries, the distance I'm at "feels right". I suspect going back and trying to do a C25K-like plan would be frustrating and demotivational. More than overuse injuries, I dunno. But I will consider it.

TeejWI

37 posts since
Apr 14, 2008

7. Apr 15, 2008 10:00 AM

in response to: TeejWI

Re: Should I be concerned?

Just a bit of clarification...I haven't been a total couch potato recently....

Last year in spring/early summer I was doing HIIT on an exercise bike...later in the summer and into fall I was lifting weights more than cardio.

I backed off the weights a bit because I had a slight muscle pull in my back and I didn't want to aggravate it before a trip I took in January.

I have done occasional cardio (wallking, HIIT on the bike, etc)...just not enough to leave me in "good" shape.

JennerVT

72 posts since
Apr 8, 2008

8. Apr 15, 2008 10:09 AM

in response to: TeejWI

Re: Should I be concerned?

Wow, I'm impressed by how quickly you have gotten up to those distances! I'm a newbie starting the C25K program and I'm pretty envious

Regarding HR, I've used a HR monitor for a few years now doing various exercises (bought it for Spinning class but wear it all the time at the gym to track calories burned). I'm 26, so my max HR should be 194, but I've met and/or exceeded that number before. I watch it and try not to go above that max, but I feel fine at 185 (which is usually where I'm at during the most intense run portions). The HR monitors are defaulted to give you a range that I think is much lower than I would like to workout at. You can manually set your limits on the monitor so it doesn't keep yelling at you for breaking it's rules

I don't remember if you said what kind of monitor you have, I have a polar and you go to settings, limit set to change those settings. You can also turn off the annoying beep that alerts you. Good luck with your speedy progress!

kcfrogg

24 posts since
Sep 19, 2007

9. Apr 15, 2008 10:29 AM

in response to: juststarted

Re: Should I be concerned?

juststarted wrote:........ Personally, I wouldn't use a HRM at this point. I would run what feels comfortable.I wear mine whenever I do anything. I don't worry too much about the zones I am in right now. The more I get out there my time in Zone 4 & Zone 5 is gradually tapering off. Plus, I love to plug my data recorder into my laptop and have that visual confirmation that I did something which I use as my journal / log.

What the He.... What I wrote merged with the qoute. What is up with that?

juststarted

761 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

10. Apr 15, 2008 10:33 AM

in response to: kcfrogg

Re: Should I be concerned?

T - Sorry if I misinterpreted "pathetic shape" to mean couch like. C25K probably isn't right for you. Give HHST a try. It does not give you a pace or target HR though.

KC - That's great you find it useful. I *personally *wouldn't use one while trying to build a base.

TeejWI

37 posts since
Apr 14, 2008

11. Apr 15, 2008 4:00 PM

in response to: JennerVT

Re: Should I be concerned?

Thanks. I'm still a bit puzzled by my physical response (heart running 155-160 and still being able to hold a conversation, not getting tired...maintain it for 45 minutes...etc...but having that happen at such a slow jogging pace, and having even a 10:00 pace push my heart past 180) but about all I can figure is that my heart and lungs are good, it's just I don't have the plumbing built into the leg muscles to handle running yet, taxing my ability to feed the muscles - the muscles are much different for running and cycling after all.

TeejWI

37 posts since
Apr 14, 2008

12. Apr 15, 2008 4:01 PM

in response to: juststarted

Re: Should I be concerned?

Gotcha. I wouldn't say couch-like is a bad analogy either - probably not a bad assumption. I have been at least somewhat active but not nearly enough. Certainly not enough running.

kimber45caliber@yahoo.com

401 posts since
Oct 20, 2007

13. Apr 15, 2008 5:55 PM

in response to: TeejWI

Re: Should I be concerned?

Just throwing in my 2 cents. Do you know what your resting HR is? I found this article to be helpful.

I'm a 49 yr old woman. I had a stress test in November and my target number was 145 according to the cardiologist. I don't know what formula he used. Using the 220 - age (49) = 171. Then 80% of that is 136.8. I will say that it took 9 minutes on the treadmill for me to reach 145. They had that sucker nearly vertical and the speed was flying. I don't think I could have run any faster.

Now all this being said, my coach did a HR test with me on my bicycle and trainer. He had some formula he used. I find it much harder to get my HR up on the bicycle than when I run. His calculations found my Anaerobic Threshold to be 148. So all these numbers are coming out about the same.

This is what the different HR zones mean - These zones are adjusted for me on my bike.

HR1 Active recovery/Easy

Your active recovery/easy heart rate training zone is less than 115 beats/minute. This range is 78% of your ATHR. This could also be called "active rest". This is where you will be early in the season and in between hard workout days during the season. For many people (Who, me?) this is the hardest place to be. That feeling of: "I'm not working hard enough", seems to be very difficult for some people. This is the zone, however, where you can maintain your fitness while recovering from harder work. One of the biggest problems in training is the ability to go easy and allow the body to recover and benefit from the hard work already done.

HR2 Aerobic Endurance/Medium

Your Aerobic endurance heart rate training zone is 116 to 133 beats/minute. You will be training between 78-90% of your ATHR. This is also known as aerobic endurance, technically, everything below about 85%-905 is "aerobic" but depending upon how fit one is, the line between aerobic and anaerobic training can be lower or higher. This is a good zone to stay in for your long rides and runs where your focus is to spend time on one's legs installing the plumbing (circulatory system) and energy systems (Mitochondria) that will allow your muscles to work more efficiently. This is a relatively easy zone to be in, but requires steady, moderate effort.

HR3 Lactic Acid

Tolerance/Anaerobic

Threshold /Tempo

Your lactate tolerance/tempo heart rate zone is 134 to 147 beats/minute. This is from 90-100% of your ATHR. This could also be called "tempo" This is the zone where many people spend the majority of their time because they "feel like" they're working only at or just above78%. Depending on one's level of fitness, the frequency and duration spent in this zone will drop you into an overtraining abyss or gradually maximize your athletic potential. As you raise you AT, this zone should feel easier and easier. It is not an "easy"; level of intensity but one that you should be able to hold for long periods. In the early "base building" part of the season, this will be the upper limit of higher intensity training.

HR 4 vo2 Peak/Hard

Your peak heart rate zone is greater than 148 beats/minute. This is training above your ATHR, also known as hammer time. This is the zone where interval will be done during the race season. Like tempo, excessive time spent in the zone will quickly lead to diminishing returns. In this case, abuse doesn't take long to manifest itself as symptoms of overtraining. Used in the right amount, this is where major gains in anaerobic gains for shorter races (Olympic and shorter) can be made.

So if we use the standard 220 minus age, we get 182 for you. Then 70% is 127 and 80% is 145.6. You're about 10 points above me. You can probably use your numbers and figure out where your HR zones fit in.

I don't know if I've helped you or not. I think you need to slow down, even walk, until you can get your HR down into the 70-80% range. You might want to read this article. It has an incredible amount of information.

Good luck to you and congratulations for getting off the couch.

TeejWI

37 posts since
Apr 14, 2008

14. Apr 30, 2008 1:24 PM

in response to: TeejWI

Re: Should I be concerned?

Just as a followup...still here, still running, still stretching.

Had some soreness in an achilles after one run at the end of my second week. Gave that lots of extra rest with minimul running the following week.

Continuing onward, the only "problem" I've been having in adaptation is my MCLs (ligaments on the "inside" of the knees). More on the right than the left, and more on the tibia than femur. Most of the time I don't even notice it walking - just tender if I "tap" on it.

I've bagged off a bit on a run or two when I felt something out of the ordinary, but overall doing pretty good.

I'm givin HHST a try but I'm not sure I'm up to it yet (more days running, even if some are shorter) but I'll find out.

I'm running a combination of an indoor track and my neighborhood roads. Last night I did the first HHST run (1.5 mi) and found myself running it much too fast. Didn't realize how fast I was going until I was at about the mile point...fast being a relative term at this point. I'm not "fast" by any stretch yet.

I've been holding myself to 14:00 to 15:00 pace based on heart rate when I go out for my 5k trots lately. Last night I didn't wear my HRM and just ran. It was quite chilly. I ended up running at about 10:15 pace.

Essentially I've done:

Week1: 6.3m

Week2: 8.2m

Week3: 5.8m

Week4: 4.5 so far. Going based on the way I've been measuring it (Sun - Sat) this week will be a big jump (12 mi).

However, that's because I went from my last 3m run and decided to start the HHST which runs Mon - Sun. Looking at my past month on a "monday to sunday" basis my running is more like: 1.5 (1 run) / 4.8 (2 runs) / 7.2 (3) / 8.2 (3) Starting on this past monday for HHST, this will be a 9 mi (4 days running) week if I get through it. Funny how changing the calendar alters the perspective...but...

Goal for now is still just building a fitness base. Depending on how some things go this summer / fall I may have a desire to optimize very short sprints ( < 100m) but that's not worth factoring yet.

Go to original post

This Question is Answered

Apr 14, 2008 6:38 PM

Should I be concerned?

HR1 Active recovery/Easy

HR2 Aerobic Endurance/Medium

HR 4 vo2 Peak/Hard

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