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TigerCoach__8 Rookie 6 posts since
May 30, 2007
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Dec 4, 2008 7:48 PM

MLB Balk rule issue

 

I've asked the following question on a few "Ask the umpire" sites including Major League Baseball and have never gotten a response.  When I ask HS certified umps, I usually just get a look of disbelief and a comment about how they're glad they don't use the MLB rule book for most of their games.  In the Major League Rule book, in the fourth paragraph of rule number 8.01 (a), the full wind up position is described.  Then it says "From this position the pitcher may:  (1) deliver the ball to the batter, or (2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or (3) disengage the rubber by stepping off first with his pivot foot and not his free foot.

 

 

What??????  Is anyone besides me confused by number (2)?  Does the umpire exist that won't call a balk if a pitcher from the full wind up position tries to pick off a runner without doing number (3) first?  If so, I've got to teach this pick off move to my pitchers and have him ump all my games.

 

 

Tags: pitching, balk-rule
MyTwoSons Community Moderator 97 posts since
May 30, 2007
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1. Dec 5, 2008 11:44 AM in response to: TigerCoach__8
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

The key is that the pitcher must step to the base he is throwing to. A lefty can get away with a 45 degree angle between 1st and home. Some pitchers get away with more.  Yes, this is from the wind up.

NA_Umpires Community Moderator 10 posts since
May 30, 2007
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2. Dec 6, 2008 8:47 AM in response to: TigerCoach__8
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

 

You haven't discovered anything new, or some super-secret move.

 

 

Any umpire worth his salt knows that you CAN throw directly from the windup to a base to pick off a runner and it isn't a balk.

 

 

They also should know that this is exceedingly difficult to do in a way that isn't a balk and has any chance of picking off a runner !

 

 

See, you can't START the windup motion AT ALL. If you do and throw over, that's a balk. Merely taking the rubber in the windup position and then throwing over directly isn't.

 

 

Perhaps this is what you are thinking, that somehow from the windup you can start some kind of motion and then go over to the base. You can't, unlike from the set position. The key is you aren't in the set position until you come set, so when your feet are in the set position you are allowed the preliminary stretch motion (which doesn't commit you to pitch to the batter) so you CAN have some movement and throw over, as long as you haven't actually come set yet.

 

 

Not so from the windup. Once you start your motion (typically with the rocker step back, or moving your hands) you are committed to pitch to the batter, and throwing over from THERE is a balk, since you'd have to stop the act of pitching to the batter and start something else: throwing to a base.

 

 

However, if you are in the windup position and DON'T start your motion, then you can throw over.

 

 

That's what a BALK is: when you stop doing one thing and go do another.

 

 

Is that clear enough ?

 

 

NA_Umpires Community Moderator 10 posts since
May 30, 2007
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4. Dec 6, 2008 12:37 PM in response to: TigerCoach__8
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

 

Go read the rule again online -- it's no longer required.

 

 

You don't see it done because it's not effective, and it's hard not to actually balk. All I'm saying is it's not automatically a balk.

 

 

Yes, you MUST step off with the pixot foot; otherwise that's just like the start of the pitching motion, and should be balked; if I'm interpreting what you are saying correctly.

 

 

Manny_A Amateur 30 posts since
May 25, 2007
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5. Dec 9, 2008 11:43 AM in response to: TigerCoach__8
Re: MLB Balk rule issue
TigerCoach__8 wrote:

 

When I ask HS certified umps, I usually just get a look of disbelief and a comment about how they're glad they don't use the MLB rule book for most of their games.

 

 

 

 

Ask those HS umpires why they feel taking away a home run from a batter who just sent a balked pitch over the fence is a good thing.  In HS rules, all balks are an immediate dead ball, so anything that happens aftewards, even a game-winning grand slam in the bottom of the seventh inning, would not count.  So there are good and not-so-good features of the balk rule in HS and MLB rules.

 

 

Yes, in pro rules, a pitcher is allowed to step and throw to a base for a pickoff or for an appeal.  But as NA mentioned, the pitcher must be very deliberate in that move.  It has to be extremely evident that the pitcher's first motion is that step directly to the base with his free foot.  Anything that even remotely looks like the start of the pitching motion would be a balk.

 

 

For example, runner on third with two outs taking a huge lead, and a lefty pitcher is in the windup with both feet on the rubber.  If that pitcher steps directly to third base with his right (free) foot and throws over there, the move is legal. But if he takes a step back with that free foot, that would commit him to pitch, and any subsequent move to third is a balk.

 

 

Because the move has to be so obvious, pro pitchers don't use it because it doesn't fool pro base runners.  You never see runners take big leads when the pitcher is in the windup until that pitcher starts his actual pitching motion.

 

 

Manny Aponte

 

 

Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 53 posts since
May 25, 2007
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6. Dec 10, 2008 5:31 PM in response to: Manny_A
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

 

Manny has it right. It is perfectly legal provided you do it correctly. He is also correct that doesn't happen at the higher levels because it doesn't fool good runners. However, it can be used at the lower levels where the runners and managers aren't as good. At lower levels most managers tell their runners to break on first motion believing incorrectly that is marks the beginning of the pitch. If you are going to teach this move you have to make the pitcher understands he must step  first before he starts his hands.

 

 

On the other side of the coin, you have to know that  not all umpires are going to understand that this move is correct. If you get balked for it, ask the umpire why it is a balk. If he says that you can't throw to a base from the wind-up then you have a protest. At that point he has to get his partner involved and try to right the protest, including going to the rulebook. Ask him to look at the three things and it should settle it. If not, let the protest committee figure it out.

 

 

Remember, NEVER, EVER bring the rulebook out on the umpire.

 

 

cmurph52 Rookie 2 posts since
Jan 2, 2009
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7. Jan 2, 2009 1:23 PM in response to: Michael_Taylor
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

 

As a cerified umpire, let me clarify a few things. If a balk is called, the pitcher releases the pitch and the batter places the ball in fair territory, the ball is in play. I have let this stand in high school games.  After the dust settles, the offensive team, at its option, may accept the balk or the play, provided however, that if the batter successfully achieves first base by the normal rules, other than by a fielder's choice, then the play stands. So, for instance, if there is a runner on second and one out, and the pitcher balks but still delivers the ball, and the batter hits a play ball deep enough to successfully move the runner pursuant to the rules of a sacrifice fly, then the offensive team may chose either the balk or the play.  I called a balk last year and the batter hit a double with runners on first and second. After the play was completed, I called a time out and advised the coach of the offensive team of his options, Naturally, he took the double.

 

 

And yes we do allow pick off moves from the wind up position. What the rule really requires is that the pitcher not only step off with his pivot foot, but he must also break his hands simultaneously. It's really hard to pick off someone after that move. Most youth pitchers are taught that move if they want to trick an inexperienced runner who will break on the first move. 

 

 

Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 53 posts since
May 25, 2007
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8. Jan 2, 2009 3:17 PM in response to: cmurph52
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

 

As a cerified umpire, let me clarify a few things. If a balk is called, the pitcher releases the pitch and the batter places the ball in fair territory, the ball is in play. I have let this stand in high school games. After the dust settles, the offensive team, at its option, may accept the balk or the play, provided however, that if the batter successfully achieves first base by the normal rules, other than by a fielder's choice, then the play stands. So, for instance, if there is a runner on second and one out, and the pitcher balks but still delivers the ball, and the batter hits a play ball deep enough to successfully move the runner pursuant to the rules of a sacrifice fly, then the offensive team may chose either the balk or the play. I called a balk last year and the batter hit a double with runners on first and second. After the play was completed, I called a time out and advised the coach of the offensive team of his options, Naturally, he took the double.

 

 

In a high school this is an imediate dead ball, do not let it go. In any OBR based league; LL, PONY or AL, among others; it is a delayed dead ball. The problem is it IS NOT a choice of play or balk. What happens is all baserunners advance one base safely and the BR makes at least first, then the balk is ignorred. If all these conditions aren't met then the balk is enforced, the batter returns with the same count and all runners advance one base from TOP. In no league under any circumstances is there a choice.

 

 

 

And yes we do allow pick off moves from the wind up position. What the rule really requires is that the pitcher not only step off with his pivot foot, but he must also break his hands simultaneously. It's really hard to pick off someone after that move. Most youth pitchers are taught that move if they want to trick an inexperienced runner who will break on the first move.

 

 

In HS you can not pick from the wind-up. In all other leagues you may but you have to step with your non-pivot. Also, you must not start yor hands until you step.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

cmurph52 Rookie 2 posts since
Jan 2, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
9. Jan 3, 2009 1:46 PM in response to: Michael_Taylor
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

 

Well, this was discussed at  two of our umpire meetings, and the senior umpires agreed there is a choice that can be made so long as the runner does not achieve first base except for a fielder's choice. Thus, if the batter hits the ball fair after a balk is called, the offensive team has the right to take the play or the balk. And there is no such thing as a delayed dead ball. This isn't hockey or football. The rule can supercede the action, but only after time is called.

 

 

 

 

 

example: Runner on second no one out when balk is called. Batter hits a very deep fly ball that is caught at the center field fence. Runner  who is very fast properly tags up and makes it home safely. As the batter did not achieve first base safely, time is called when the play ends and offensive coach is advised of option to take the balk and advance runner to third and batter returns to plate with same count or take the play with a run in and one out made. The situation during the game might dictate the coach's decision. If offensive team is three runs down during its last at bat at time balk is called, the coach might decline the play and accept the balk, given how precious outs are to him.

 

 

 

 

 

second example: Runner on second when balk is called but pitcher delivers and batter hits a clean single to right. Batter touches first and is thrown out trying to stretch single into double. The batter's action,  by having achieved first base not by virtue of a fielder's choice, obviates the balk rule infraction, and the play stands.

 

 

third example: balk call and wild pitch thrown. Since the batter has not put the ball in fair territory, the ball is dead and runners advance per balk rule. Batter does not get benefit of another ball being added to the count by virtue of wild pitch. Indeed, wild pitch is moot.

 

 

NA_Umpires Community Moderator 10 posts since
May 30, 2007
Currently Being Moderated
10. Jan 3, 2009 6:06 PM in response to: cmurph52
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

 

Your senior umpires need to go look in the book again. They are dead wrong. There is NO option on a balk. Catcher's interference, yes. 8.02(a)(2)-(6), yes. Balk ? NO.

 

 

They are confusing the balk rules in 8.05 with the rule in 8.02(a)(6)(b):

 

8.02 The pitcher shall not-
(a) (1) Bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber. EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand.
PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call a ball. However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeated offenders shall be subject to a fine by the league president.
(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;
(3) rub the ball on his glove, person or clothing;
(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball;
(5) deface the ball in any manner; or
(6) deliver a ball altered in a manner prescribed by Rule 8.02(a)(2) through (5) or what is called the "shine" ball, "spit" ball, "mud" ball or "emery" ball. The pitcher is allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands.
PENALTY: For violation of any part of Rules 8.02 (a)(2) through (6):
(a) The pitcher shall be ejected immediately from the game and shall be suspended automatically. In National Association Leagues, the automatic suspension shall be for 10 games.
(b) If a play follows the violation called by the umpire, the manager of the team at bat may advise the umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation.
(c) Even though the team at bat elects to take the play, the violation shall be recognized and the penalties in subsection (a) will still be in effect.
(d) If the manager of the team at bat does not elect to accept the play, the umpire-in-chief shall call an automatic ball and, if there are any runners on base, a balk.
(e) The umpire shall be sole judge on whether any portion of this rule has been violated.

 

The balk rule penalty states it as below. Notice there is not an option mentioned.

 

PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.
APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.
APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced one base for the purpose of this rule.

 

Take a look here: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/08_the_pitcher.pdf if you don't believe me.

 

 

No such thing as delayed dead ball ?

 

 

Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 53 posts since
May 25, 2007
Currently Being Moderated
11. Jan 3, 2009 7:07 PM in response to: NA_Umpires
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

 

Thanks NA, you beat me to it. If you note in the quote from the book there is no option. It also makes no mention of a FC excluding the balk.

 

 

It is a very simple call to enforce: If the pitcher doesn't pitch then advance all the runners. If he does pitch, then allow the play to continue until one of the conditions aren't met.  If the batter doesn't make first by BB, FC with no out, hit or uncaught third strike then kill the ball and enforce the balk. If either runner is put out BEFORE reaching the next base then again kill the ball and enforce the balk. If your big dogs don't believe this then have them read 8.05 penalty. In HS, it is always a imediately dead ball.

 

 

You are correct that there is no delayed dead ball in the book but it certainly exists. It is a term developed by internet umpires that is used all the time on the field.

 

 

Example:

 

 

Batter's interference ,catcher's interference, umpire interference by the PU and Type B obstruction.  

 

 

You allow the play to continue to see if they get the out. That is a delayed dead ball situation.

 

 

Manny_A Amateur 30 posts since
May 25, 2007
Currently Being Moderated
12. Jan 5, 2009 8:35 AM in response to: cmurph52
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

 

Well, this was discussed at two of our umpire meetings, and the senior umpires agreed there is a choice that can be made so long as the runner does not achieve first base except for a fielder's choice.

 

 

I'm just curious what rule set you're talking about.  As others have said, a choice is never offered in baseball when a pitcher balks.  Now, when a LL pitcher commits an illegal pitch (essentially the equivalent of a balk on the LL 60' diamond), the choice is offered.  It is also offered in softball (ASA, FED, PONY, perhaps others) when a pitcher commits an illegal pitch.  Perhaps your senior umpires confused what is allowed in softball and/or LL "small ball".

 

 

second example: Runner on second when balk is called but pitcher delivers and batter hits a clean single to right. Batter touches first and is thrown out trying to stretch single into double. The batter's action, by having achieved first base not by virtue of a fielder's choice, obviates the balk rule infraction, and the play stands.

 

 

The fielder's choice has nothing to do with a balk infraction.  If a pitcher balks, the batter puts the ball in play, and the batter reaches first on a fielder's choice, you could still ignore the balk if all other runners made it safely to their next bases.  As an example, hit-and-run is on and the batter grounds a balked pitch to the shortstop.  Shortstop flips to second, but the runner from first beats the throw to second.  The batter reaches first on the fielder's choice.  The balk is ignored since both runners reached their next bases safely.

 

 

third example: balk call and wild pitch thrown. Since the batter has not put the ball in fair territory, the ball is dead and runners advance per balk rule. Batter does not get benefit of another ball being added to the count by virtue of wild pitch. Indeed, wild pitch is moot.

 

 

Not necessarily.  If the wild pitch happens to be Ball Four on the batter, and he and other runners advance to their next bases, the balk is ignored.  The same is true if the balked wild pitch is Strike Three (batter swung at it), he safely advances to first (when the rule allows him to advance on an uncaught third strike), and the other runners advance safely.  In those cases, the wild pitch is not moot.  Only if the wild pitch does not allow the batter and all runners to advance safely is the balk enforced.

 

 

Manny

 

 

tb1028 Rookie 1 posts since
Jun 9, 2008
Currently Being Moderated
13. Sep 28, 2009 8:32 AM in response to: Michael_Taylor
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

Can you apply the rule for this situation?

Runner on 2b with 1 out, pitcher balks and delivers the pitch, batter hits the ball on the ground to SS. SS then tags the runner moving on contact and throws to first. Obviously, if the batter is out at 1b, the balk is enforced and he returns to the plate same count, but what if the batter is safe at 1b......Doesn't this give rise to a delayed dead ball where the offensive manager would choose to take the balk(runner on 3b with 1 out) rather than the play(runner on 1b with 2outs)

Thanks

MyTwoSons Community Moderator 97 posts since
May 30, 2007
Currently Being Moderated
14. Sep 30, 2009 10:18 AM in response to: tb1028
Re: MLB Balk rule issue

Base runner(s) and batter are entitled to 1 base.  After that they are at risk.  In your situation call is Balk...no pitch..Base runner on 2nd goes to 3rd batter runner goes back to hit.  If base runner or batter-runner advance past one base...they are at risk.  Example...Same situation but ss was slow, does not make tag and is slow to make throw to 1st, batter runner is safe and base runner that was on 2nd tries for home and is meat at the plate: Play stands no balk.   

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