Tinman et al. -

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244-259-11738-0,00.html[/URL" target="_blank">

Hope the link works.

quote:<HR>Moderately trained runners may benefit from a faster start because they're probably not starting fast enough in the first place. The researchers suggest that their study findings are probably most applicable to competitive open and master's division runners, not elites who already know how best to push themselves right from the gun or beginners who totally lack a sense of pacing. And even competitive runners shouldn't try the go-out-fast strategy in longer races, when other variables become more important than first-mile pace--like, say, finishing another 25.2 miles.<HR>

It is kind of important you read that part, too.

And here's why they think it worked ...

quote:<HR>ccording to the study, at the end of the first mile, the even-paced runners were at only 78 percent of their VO2 max, an effort level more akin to a tempo run than a 5-K race--below their potential. The three-percent and six-percent faster starts put the subjects at 82 and 83 percent of VO2 max after the first mile, which is closer to the intensity you'd expect from an experienced runner racing the first mile of a 5-K.<HR>

I think it's a pretty valid study; it's a small, nonrandom sample, but others could easily replicate it for comparison. It can also only be generalized to a small group of people -- probably newer runners who race below their potential (I think that's me a lot of the time, being too conservative), and likely people falling in a similar time range. (Those girls all had PRs between 18 and 21 minutes, so very close to most of us.)

Jim, tflightfoot, MichiganFlyer, thanks for your kind words. It was surprisingly exciting for me to break 20, considering that I did it routinely in races and tempo runs years ago.

Tflightfoot nice race on a tough day. I believe that to run under 20 in the conditions you described would require a fitness level capable of producing something in the low 19's under ideal circumstances. A week before the race I described, I ran a 5K on a warm, humid day, that had a significant hill just after the start. My time that day was a minute slower, so I think your sub-20 is in range.

Has anyone on this thread considered trying a track race?
As MF notes, there is the advantage of a flat course and constant feedback on pace. I'm thinking about trying one for the first time in many years. I can remember races where a
pack of us were on similar pace, and I could just relax and cruise along for a few laps without having to expend much mental energy maintaining pace.

Regarding my warmup, I generally jog for 12-15 minutes. In the past, after that I would stretch for 5-10 minutes. For the past year, however, I have been using a series of dynamic activation exercises that I got from the book "Run Strong," edited by Kevin Beck. That book maintains that stretching causes muscles to be temporarily weaker, hence less able to perform to their maximum capability. (Maybe Tinman can comment on the science on that.) The dynamic activation routine seems to prepare my body to run hard (I also do it before workouts), and seems to help mentally to snap me out of the lull of jogging/easy running. At that point, I'll change into my racing shoes, do a few strides, and if I have sufficient time, perhaps run a minute or two at race pace.

Jim, my interval workouts are generally longer and slower than the one I described. I'll usually only do the 10 x 500 to
prepare me mentally when I'm deep into my racing season.
(I plan to just run another race or two before taking a short break in preparation for summer base training for fall XC.)
Not sure if my timing on that (the workout) is correct or not.
Again, perhaps Tinman can comment.

Any race reports from today?

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking in this thread for ever. I'm finally ready to start working seriously on improving my 5K time. Usually I run much longer races and have done 5K's as a bit of an afterthought. My PR was 22:47 which was set during training for ultras, so I've felt that I have it in my to run sub-20 if I were to train specifically for a 5K race.

So to kick things off for the summer, I did a 5K this morning. I surprised myself by demolishing my PR by almost a full minute, 21:48 chip and 21:51 gun. I'm on cloud nine right now to say the least. I'm especially happy that my first 2.5km spilt was only about 10 seconds faster than the second half.

I have another race coming up in two weeks, then another in the first week of August. After that I'm going to do a bit more long slow running (I might run an ultra in September), then get back into 5K's for the rest of the fall and for all of next year.

------------------
Mark

Vegan 100 Miler[/URL" target="_blank">

quote:<HR>Originally posted by runfastcoach:
-

Again, some runners need practice at running their FASTEST EVEN PACE. Some people who try it for the first time end up running too slowly. They don't know what it should feel like - pace or effort. That may very well be the case for those gals who were the subjects for the study.

Regards,

Tinman<HR>

Tinman -

you hit the nail on the head here.

The only problem with the Runners World story is they neglected to summarize what you just did. These New Hampshire cross runners while in the top 1-2% of runners still did not know how to pace correctly. Let that be a lesson to us all to try and find the correct pace which will make us much better runners.

These runners ran 3-6% faster the 1st mile and had better 5k times. What this tells me is it is very harmful to go out too slow the 1st mile as your time will be worse than if you go out too fast the 1st mile.

So the key is not that difficult to find here. You already know your PR for a 5k (mine is 20:22). A few days ago I ran the 1st mile in 6:28 (20:03 5k pace and ended with a 20:27 final 5k pace). It is almost a given had I run a 6:32 first mile (20:15 five k pace) that I would have broken my 5k pr.

My next 5k attempt I will tone it down just a little from my 6:28 effort.

Another thing:

Over the years I've noticed that runners who do shorter intervals (like 400s) instead of longer intervals (like 1k to 2ks) have a much harder time running a steady, even pace the whole way in distance races. They go out too fast and then just "try to hang on."

Longer intervals simulate race experiences better than shorter intervals. It's that simple.

Tinman

Michigan...I know you do a lot of treadmill running. My wife recently spent about 3 to 4 weeks of exclusive treadmill running, and is now getting back into outdoor running.

Today when we hit about 3 miles into the run, she says, "Running on a treadmilll is simply not the same..."

I tend to agree. I would honestly try to get outside as much as possible. Yes it will be warm, but part of racing is being acclimated to the heat and outdoors.

Do you do any of your 10+ mile runs outside? Any hill work as well? You can simulate uphills on a TM, but in my experience it simply isn't the same, and of course downhill is another thing entirely.

I did a 3 mile tempo run today @ 7:05 pace, and this included a few decent climbs and descents. I'm not sure how I could have achieved the same workout (much less in 95% humidity ) on a TM. Our 5K's around here are anything but flat, so I like running tempo's with a few decent hills to help simulate what I'll be experiencing in the races.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Docster:
Michigan...I know you do a lot of treadmill running. My wife recently spent about 3 to 4 weeks of exclusive treadmill running, and is now getting back into outdoor running.

Today when we hit about 3 miles into the run, she says, "Running on a treadmilll is simply not the same..."

I tend to agree. I would honestly try to get outside as much as possible. Yes it will be warm, but part of racing is being acclimated to the heat and outdoors.

Do you do any of your 10+ mile runs outside? Any hill work as well? You can simulate uphills on a TM, but in my experience it simply isn't the same, and of course downhill is another thing entirely.

I did a 3 mile tempo run today @ 7:05 pace, and this included a few decent climbs and descents. I'm not sure how I could have achieved the same workout (much less in 95% humidity ) on a TM. Our 5K's around here are anything but flat, so I like running tempo's with a few decent hills to help simulate what I'll be experiencing in the races. <HR>

You are right it is a different kind of running. But I guess one of my standpoints is that if I run in 85 degree heat after work I will be slogging around dragging my poor body behind. I can always get a decent workout in with the treadmill any time of day.


The other point is with a 2 year old daughter I like to be close to the house so that if my wife needs me to watch her I can let my dauighter play while I run.

I was thinking about upping the mileage this week. I have 15 (all treadmill) miles run in 2 days so far. There was a thunderstorm this morning so I couldn't run my planned morning run outside. I just didnt run. I may run on the track this afternoon. But I am serious about waking up early and getting some morning runs outside as I did last year. Then I will run a few afternoon miles on the treadmill.

I love running outdoors it is a huge treat. Almost like I am a new runner again so even after 800 miles I am not burned out cuz I am looking forward to starting some runs outdoors. I set my treadmill to 1% slope to compensate for wind/etc but when I get outdoors and hit a downhill section it is like heaven as I never see this with the treadmill.

I estimate I run about 5-10% of my miles outdoors.
I have run a 19:14 on the treadmill with 0% slope...so I know the difference is big. But it may be more mental than anything. I need to learn to keep the pace outside with the wind and elements.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
You are right it is a different kind of running. But I guess one of my standpoints is that if I run in 85 degree heat after work I will be slogging around dragging my poor body behind. I can always get a decent workout in with the treadmill any time of day.


The other point is with a 2 year old daughter I like to be close to the house so that if my wife needs me to watch her I can let my dauighter play while I run.

I was thinking about upping the mileage this week. I have 15 (all treadmill) miles run in 2 days so far. There was a thunderstorm this morning so I couldn't run my planned morning run outside. I just didnt run. I may run on the track this afternoon. But I am serious about waking up early and getting some morning runs outside as I did last year. Then I will run a few afternoon miles on the treadmill.

I love running outdoors it is a huge treat. Almost like I am a new runner again so even after 800 miles I am not burned out cuz I am looking forward to starting some runs outdoors. I set my treadmill to 1% slope to compensate for wind/etc but when I get outdoors and hit a downhill section it is like heaven as I never see this with the treadmill.

I estimate I run about 5-10% of my miles outdoors.
I have run a 19:14 on the treadmill with 0% slope...so I know the difference is big. But it may be more mental than anything. I need to learn to keep the pace outside with the wind and elements.<HR>

Try running with your incline at 2%, I own a landice L-7 treadmill and do all my runs at 2% incline, it matches the outdoors a lot better.