quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jim24315:
If your goal is to break 3 hours for the marathon I see no reason to keep running one every 6 months to see if you can do it this time. These are the cold facts:

If you can?t break 39 for 10k you have very little hope running a sub-3. In fact you should be able to run well down in the 38?s to half a good shot.

If you can?t run 10 miles at under 6:30 pace, no sub-3 marathon for you.

If you can?t ran a half-marathon in under 1:26 you are unlikely run a sub-3 marathon.

You might as well focus on these distances for a while until you can run the times necessary to reach your marathon goal.
<HR>

No stones, Jim, but I do disagree to some extent. In training for a marathon, your times at shorter races will also improve. Maybe more to the point, what exactly does it mean to "focus on other distances"? For a 10K, 10 Mile, or Half Marathon, in my opnion, the essential ingredients are the same: Build a big aerobic base and then when the big race draws near, start doing more specific training.

And TCM = Twin Cities Marathon. It took me a while, too.

http://This message has been edited by ljwoodw (edited Dec-15-2005).

i agree with ljwoodw. all my pr's from distances from 1 mile to the marathon came when training for marathons. the biggest single factor was increasing my mileage substanstialy. i had been running for about 8 years and and slowly lowered my PR's, with better training to an exent, but probably mostly from consistency and the cumulative effect . i had been doing 2 marathons a year for the most part during those years. at that point i decided to stop doing marathons and concentrate on shorter distances to see if could get some of the PR's down even more. i added in more speework and cut back the longer runs and what happened was actually the opposite effect of what i expected to happen, i wasn't even able to match my PR's. i did this for two years wth the same results. at this point i sort of resigned myelf to the fact that age had probably started to catch up with me (i had started running at 40) and would probably not see faster times again. but in a last desperate attempt i decided to up my mileage considerably to see what would happen (training in the past had mostly been in the 45-55 mile range), figured i had nothing really to lose.

surprisingly i saw some almost immediate results. ran a hilly 25K within 3 months of starting higher mileage traing that i had run a number of times before (and the last two times i had run it with very similar results, and was happy with them) and set a 3 minute PR, much to my shock. figured i might be onto something with the higher mileage thing (only took me 8 years of running to figure it out...) so continued on with that tact. month and half later i set a a 1/2 marathon PR by 2 minutes....and from then on i set big PR's, as i mentioned, from the mile up to the marathon (decided i might as well take a crack at the distance again, resulting in 12 minute PR the first time trying) within a 2 years time frame.

i don't really think that 10K, 1/2 marathon or marathon training is all that different, and as ljwoodw states with maybe just a little more concentration as big race comes nearer. a favorite sharpening workout of mine for the 10K is a 5 or 6 x 1 mile workout with a failrly short recovery in-between. that's a good marathon workout in my mind as well. as is a 14 mile progession type run that i would do for marathon training be a great strengh workout for a 10K. even the mile PR came about 2 months after running a marathon, i just added 4 or 5 sharpening workouts that were more mile specific.

i am an advocate of the multi-tier aproach to training, touching all the bases throughout your training, which can set you up for very good tmes at all distances.

as an aside to hermosbay, i did a very similar type run as you 22 miler. i slighty modified a Khalid Khannouchi long run that i had read about. i did 3 miles warmup, 7 miles at goal MP plus 15 seconds a mile, then 10 at goal MP, then finished on a track with 2 miles at tempo pace. hardest training run i have ever done, i was doubled up at the track after that one. but by completing it successfully it me gave the mental confidence to go for my goal pace on marathon day. i do have a question about your run, where those middle miles really at MP plus 20%, or i am reading it wrong or missing something? maybe the 20% is the cumulative for the those miles over MP, not 20% per mile? otherewise seems quite slow to me, more like your easy warmup pace.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by stevebur:
the biggest single factor was increasing my mileage .

<HR>

I'm not getting through. I said:

"You can still keep your mileage up, which I would encourage you do to do. Just don?t race the marathon so often..."

There is also a direct correlation for me between increased mileage and improved times at all distances. That said, knocking off the marathons and working on shorter races, while keeping the mileage up improved my running in general, and eventually my marathon times.

" added in more speework and cut back the longer runs..."

I wonder what would have happend if you had kept up with long runs but trained like a 10k runner otherwise. Maybe it would have worked for you and maybe not. In any case you seem to be getting results you are happy with so it only makes sense to keep doing it.

Good luck,

Jim

quote:<HR>Originally posted by ltrun:
Hey, I'm no expert coach. Yes, I didn't mean maximum potential. Rather, I meant doing a TT or a race to determine current fitness. Yes, regular marathoners generally know what level they are at. But rather than to pick an arbitrary number, in this case 2:59:59, and to start gunning for that without any basis, to me is a perilous path.

It doesn't have to be a time trial. I was thinking more along lines of using recent race time and applying to a tool such as Daniels time tables and VDOT values. Then apply the related training intensities in training.

I don't have a first-hand account of a VO2Max test. A coach of mine is trying this method this year to determine training intensities for marathoners. I thought it might work. But recent race times (with in last 4-6 weeks) should do provide the same info. <HR>

Ok, cool. You did use the words "max potential" - and it got my hackles up. But I completely agree with short distance racing, Time trials to determine current fitness, and so forth. It almost goes without saying, or is implied -

If my goal is to drop my Marathon time by 20 minutes, and I have some current/indicative times in the Half Marathon, then I'd better want to drop my HM by 9-10 minutes. That's a goal. But then, that goal is pointless if you can't run a faster 10k, can't run a faster 5k...

If short distance races indicate you're fast enough, but not trained out to your current potential in the marathon - you just do more stamina/endurance training. If you're upside down slightly (like me), then you need to work on your speed at short distances before you have any hope of doing better at the Marathon. For me, there's a good correlation to the McMillain's basic formula, T2=T1*(D2/D1)^1.06, (which most of you already know) and I can use that.

But basic experience tells me I could run a 3 hour marathon on a 19:00 5k. So if I want to run a 2:20 marathon, I'd better want to run a 14:47 5k. If I can run a 16:34 - too bad, I'm not going to hold that pace for a marathon. If I run a 15:10 on a full training load and unfavorable conditions, maybe I go for it. If I run a 14:40 on a perfect day, rested, with a tailwind... maybe I shoot for a 2:23. It's all a gamble, all a guessing game. And maybe those ratios change with experience and age... These too are individual.

And to clarify - I would not say that the 5k is a great indicator of marathon performance for most people, or even for me.

Having your profile is vital to giving anyone pertinent data.

At 5'6", the answer to your improvement is simple. Lose weight.

I am 5'6" myself. At age 32, at 149 pounds, I finished Boston in 3:01.

Seventeen years later, I ran 2:49 at Boston. Weight: 135!!

Need more be said? If so, let me know what?

Correct weight dictates performance.

Hermasoboy,

Great question and great progress for you. I plan on running my first marathon in the spring and look to break 3:00 too.

My current times are: 1:26 half, 38:05 10K (although I should have been faster (ran the first 5K too fast 18:05) and 5K in 17:29.

Thanks for all the advice on this forum, it should help me too as I get ready to tackle sub 3 hours.

Thanks
Tallrunner

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I ran a 3:03 on my first one just 2 months ago and i thought I had sub 3 in the bag! I spent the whole winter and most of spring building a huge base and I maintained my mileage at around 75-80+ a week during the summer until I got injured in late August and had to cut back for 2 weeks and arrived healthy just in time for the taper. Anyways a sub 3 will be almost inevitable if I decide to train for my 2nd one anytime soon. Which is why I decided to switch back to 5ks and 10ks next year to work on speed before coming back to the marathon so that my chances of a 2:50 or so for the marathon will be improved.

My short distance times didn't improve much surprisingly (only a 2 min improvement off my 1/2 marathon time and hardly any for the 10k, perhaps only a minute or less) I think is partly due to not tapering much for these tune-ups and because my body wasn't ready to handle and benefit off that level of mileage yet.

My suggestions for you have already been mentioned by previous posters- consistency, doing the right workouts, and switching back to the shorter distances for a while before moving back up.