DRF Phase 2 - Marathon Plan A

Support | Event Directors & Organizers

Search Cool Running Community

Browse Cool Running

CoolRunning.com > Cool Running Community > Mainstream Racing >

ltrun

114 posts since
Jun 24, 2005

Jan 15, 2006 6:19 PM

DRF Phase 2 - Marathon Plan A

Now with 13 weeks to goal race, Phase 1[/URL" target="_blank"> ends and 5 weeks of Phase 2 begins.

The Primary quality workout for the week is a Tuesday track workout. The other components to the week remain. All easy runs, 1-2 days of striders, and progressing the Saturday long run every two weeks.

I guess the discussion goes next to periodization of phases. In Phase 2 for my Q1 workout, I'm going with a progression of Interval (I) pace sessions. Starting out conservative with intervals totaling about 5% of weekly miles and getting up to 8-10%. In Phase 3, the Q1 workout will change to primarily T-pace running.

I think I'm in the right mind to know that I'm not doing a weekly time trial with my Intervals, but just to perform them consistently in the correct VDOT range. Someone taught me a good simple rule for intervals: That the last rep should be faster than the first rep.

Here is my next 5 weeks. (note, all Q1 workouts are at I-pace)

Phase 2 (week#, mpw, Q1 workout, Sat Long run length)
13. 48, 10x 400, 10E
12. 54, 6x 800, 16E (hills)
11. 48, 8x 800, 13 L+T
10. 54, recovery week--no track, 18E (flat)
9. 48, 5x 1200, 5k race

(also note: I modified the TLT workout for an L+T workout (8E/3T/2E--I made it up, is this bad?)

Question 1: I haven't planned on a second quality workout per week, every week. Should I? Or will my plan of one Q workout, the strides, and the rest all easy running suffice?

In weeks 11 and 9, I do have a second Q workout planned, so I guess I am indeed adding enough.

Question 2: Hills are another component to mix in. I dont have a set system to running hills, I just make sure to run hills 1-2x per week. I've rarely run hill repeats, but I have local long runs on hilly road courses. Also, the Sunday trail runs have been in the valley, so usually I guess I do run enough hills. My question is asking how others systematically add hills to the plan. I can't imagine doing the treadmill, but I'm curious on what works.

Like I said before, 60 mpw (my peak mpw, which I hit 2-3 more times through the season) is not huge compared to many of you. I understand that If I add some miles I will probably naturally improve. But this is all the time I can manage. Also, my body can handle this volume. I'd rather concentrate on some aspects like cross-training and strength-training (both at which I'm weak at) rather than more milage.

Does anyone agree with me that marathon training can almost get boring? The DRF is a very simple progressive science. Following a plan, not encountering too many distractions or hitches, and nailing the key workouts as planned sometimes seems mundane. I think I do understand consistency is the key.

Anyhow, the season is developing and I'll keep you posted on the workouts.

Regards, LT

------------------
My Profile[/URL" target="_blank">
Run log[/URL" target="_blank">

Viich

326 posts since
May 27, 2004

1. Jan 16, 2006 7:27 AM

in response to: ltrun

I havn't run marathon distance yet, but I used daniels paces and workouts, if not plans, to train for 5-10K races last summer and found I got much faster.

I just wanted to chime in on the comment you've made several times about only one quality session. I was under the impression (without going back to the book, I admit) that as far as Daniels is concerned, your long run is quality.

Good Luck, and I'm watching to see how your training goes. What you're doing is what I'm planning on doing a year or so from now, once I get a little more running under my belt.

------------------
Craig[/URL" target="_blank">
Craig[/URL" target="_blank">

ltrun

114 posts since
Jun 24, 2005

2. Jan 16, 2006 7:48 PM

in response to: ltrun

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Viich:
I just wanted to chime in on the comment you've made several times about only one quality session. I was under the impression (without going back to the book, I admit) that as far as Daniels is concerned, your long run is quality.
<HR>

Thanks for pointing that out. I have not thought of it that way. Its definately agreeable that a well executed long run is quality; a continuous run, maintaining enough fluids and calories required of the distance, electrolytes in balance, and finishing (or having the capability of finishing) with gusto. Yes, that would be quality. Not necessarily fast, but long and easy and finish strong.

I guess I should get my book out instead of just flapping my gums...

Thanks!

sue088

264 posts since
Aug 9, 1998

3. Jan 17, 2006 11:40 AM

in response to: ltrun

nothing wrong with modifications. But in my opinion TLT is way more difficult that a TL or LT. Something like running on empty. If you didn't think you were ready, your modication was probably a good call. some of my first attempts at TLT were simply trainwrecks.

Vilch--I've always thought of the program a one quality workout. I guess in the beginning the long runs are at easy pace and you are just doing one interval session a week. In the end phases some of you long runs are considered hard once every 3 weeks (tlt) and the weeks with a planned MP has a very minimal tempo run, and the long 20-22 long run is easy physically, just tedious. It probably depends on the individual whether long and slow for 2 1/2 hours is quality. I've always considered the weeks with long, easy as my easy week. The weeks with TLT were....let's just say I had a nice name for those.

ltrun

114 posts since
Jun 24, 2005

4. Jan 26, 2006 5:59 PM

in response to: ltrun

Sue- I'm going to have to go to my journal from last year and look at how I handled the TLT. I do remember it being really draining. I do remember that 20min of T more difficult than the actual marathon. More to follow.

Okay, so now I'm two weeks into Ph2. The I-pace workouts so-far have been managable. Last week, 10x400, and this week, 6x800. No major problems to report. The only observation is that proper I pace is not greatly difficult. I'm planning my training at VDOT 53, or about 90 sec per 400. I know from last year that I could crank these out 80-85 seconds with no prob. Last week I was able to stay disciplined and ran the 10x400 in the 85-87 sec range. As for the 6x800, the set ranged from 2:56-3:02. So far, its all good.

This is different as in years past. Back in '03 and '04, I tried the yasso 800 theory--it was the sole basis of my speedwork. In '03, I was able to do the 10x yassos @ 3:05. Then ran the 'thon in 3:13. Then next year in '04 I did the same thing. Ran the 10x yasso in 2:55-3:00. Then ran 3:15.

I agree with many of you that yassos are an okay component, but not as a solitary speed component to a marathon season. The T-pace component was missing.

Last comment is on weekly volume. After the Ph1 base build to 60mpw, a cut back to 50mpw felt relatively easier. That's how its supposed to work, I guess.

Three more weeks in this phase. At the end of this Ph2, I will test myself with a 5k race.

------------------
My Profile[/URL" target="_blank">
Run log[/URL" target="_blank">

ltrun

114 posts since
Jun 24, 2005

5. Feb 5, 2006 3:17 PM

in response to: ltrun

An update.

Just completed the third week of Phase 2. Milage volume has been consistent 50-55 per week. The Primary quality workout has been a mid-week interval session on the track. We've lucked out here in NE Ohio with some decent, but still cold, weather that has allowed us to run consistently outdoors!

Its been a gradual progression of I-pace running in the last three weeks, followed by one T-paced run yesterday:

10x400 (2.5 mi @ I-pace)
6x800 (3.0 mi @ I-pace)
8x800 (4mi @ I-pace)

Then yesterday was the TLT workout. Modified it this year to only a Long run followed by 20 min T.

So so far, everything's going well, I'm feeling strong, and no complaints so far.

Its now 8 weeks down and 10 weeks to go to goal race.

I think I've settled on VDOT 52-53 for training intensities. My two training partners are VDOT 52 and 54, so we all run well together.

Next week we skip the track in favor of some hills or fartlek. The primary workout is the Saturday 18 miler. It should be negative split.

The only other thing I've added to the formula is a weekly mid-long trail run on Sundays. Getting on the dirt surface for a recovery run has been part of my recipe for quite some time now.

(Sue- I looked at my log from last year I wasn't able to complete the entire TLT run. After short warm up I did the 4x 5 min, then 1 hour E, then I only managed 15 minutes of T. I didn't make it the entire 20min. But I do remember the difficulty. That's probably why I skimped this year.)

TheNeedToRun

19 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

6. Feb 5, 2006 9:57 PM

in response to: ltrun

quote:<HR>Originally posted by ltrun:

10x400 (2.5 mi @ I-pace)
6x800 (3.0 mi @ I-pace)
8x800 (4mi @ I-pace)

<HR>

ltrun,

I thought Jack was suggesting 4 minutes intervals @ I-pace in his Marathon Plan A. Your 400s and 800s at VDOT 52-53 are < 3 minutes.

Also, did you take a full or short/float recoveries?

ltrun

114 posts since
Jun 24, 2005

7. Feb 6, 2006 5:49 PM

in response to: ltrun

quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheNeedToRun:
ltrun,

I thought Jack was suggesting 4 minutes intervals @ I-pace in his Marathon Plan A. Your 400s and 800s at VDOT 52-53 are < 3 minutes.

Also, did you take a full or short/float recoveries? <HR>

I dont have the book out right now, but I thought he suggests I-pace intervals somewhere between 90 seconds to 5 minutes. He emphasized that the duration of Intervals is no greater than 5 minutes.

I've been taking nearly 1:1 work to rest ratio for recoveries. I.e 90 sec 400s, I took 85 sec. For 3:00 800s, I took 2:30 recovery.

I don't know what you'd call it (short/float) but I would walk for about 1 minute and then stretch and wait for the next Interval. No jogging.

Next week is the last week of Intervals. Its going to be 5x 1200, or about 4:30 Intervals.

TheNeedToRun

19 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

8. Feb 6, 2006 8:15 PM

in response to: ltrun

I was referring to Jack's marathon training schedule Plan A in DRF, 2nd ed.

I think that your 400s and 800s in 90secs and 180secs respectively with full recovery are not that efficient. If you read Jacks' I-pace section, he said that it will take approx. 2 minutes of running to reach the VO2Max adaptation zone.

For comparison, let's compare 2 workouts:

1) 8x800m in 3:00. Since it takes 2 mins to reach the zone, you are only accumulating a total of 8x1mins = 8 mins of VO2Max time out of 6,400m of I-pace running.

2) 5x1200m in 4:30. Here you will accumulate 5x 2:30 = 12:30 minutes of VO2Max time out of 6,000m of I-pace running.

Hence, you can see that LONGER INTERVALS at I-pace gives more bang for the buck.

Jack also said that short I-pace running (400s or 800s) are still ok but you need to shorten your recovery time. So when you do your next rep, it won't take you a full 2 minutes to reach the Vo2Max zone. Float basically serves the same purpose - by running briskly and not jogging/walking between intervals, you will still be hovering around the VO2Max zone.

Hope this helps.

GoDawgGo

123 posts since
Jul 1, 2005

9. Feb 7, 2006 10:37 AM

in response to: ltrun

Here is a sample Daniel's Plan A I found online. I am not sure if this is 100% taken from DRF 2nd ed., but his interval sessions consist of the following:

I-1 Sets of 1000s, 1200s or miles at I-pace with 3-5 easy run to recover, up to 8-percent of weekly mileage or 10KM whichever is less. Note: I in hard workouts is at about 5K race pace. Do not run faster.

I-2 Sets of 4 minutes hard + 3 minutes easy, up to 8-percent of weekly mileage or 10KM whichever is less. Note: I in hard workouts is at about 5K race pace. Do not run faster.

I-3 Sets of 5 minutes hard + 3-5 minutes easy, up to 8-percent of weekly mileage or 10KM whichever is less. Note: I in hard workouts is at about 5K race pace. Do not run faster.

http://davecamire.com/marathon/Program_A.htm[/URL" target="_blank">

ltrun

114 posts since
Jun 24, 2005

10. Feb 8, 2006 9:34 AM

in response to: ltrun

Good feedback.

Revisiting the the plan provided in Marathon Plan A, I realize that the level of intensity I train at is much less than what Jack suggests. In several ways.

I've followed Jack's idea of the pupose of a phase--to prepare the runner for the next and more diffucult phase. I've also used progression in the speed workouts. And of course, progression in the long runs. The other Jack concept followed is the one of building up to peak milage in Phase 1.

Dawg--nice link. Yeah, I'm looking at this and seeing how far short my plan is. I'm interested in anyone who follows this plan and hope they will post here at CR.

TNTR--yeah, all perfect points on the volume of I-pace. I found that I didn't want to jump right in to 1000s Invtervals after a whole phase 1 of easy running. I started with the 400s for shorter reps and less volume. Three weeks later now I feel like I am in shape to do the precribed 8% of weekly miles at I-pace. And I've had no soreness after the workouts. I feel like I'll be ready for phase 3, now 2 week away.

I guess I have to come forward and also state my motives and goals. I am not currently in a all-or-nothing time goal for the marathon distance. Yes, I want to run well, I think I could even run close to my PR off what I'm doing. But my goals this spring is to run multiple marathons in APril and May, somewhat competitively, followed by a June ultra. I've found that DRF has provided me some concepts to train in phases and to stay healthy enough to do this.

Knock on wood, I've stayed fairly healthy and injury-free that's allowed me to run 9 'thons and 3 ultras in last 30 months.

Thanks for the input everyone. My eyes are wide open now. Thanks for helping me journalize the journey. Enjoy!

ltrun

114 posts since
Jun 24, 2005

11. Feb 20, 2006 12:00 PM

in response to: ltrun

My, how time flies. 5 weeks of Phase 2 is now over and its on to Phase 3.

In Ph2, we were able to hit all the workouts on target. We progressed up to a 8x800 and 5x1200 Interval pace workout.

In all, 4 Interval sessions, 1 Threshold workout, and progressing the long run every 14 days. We finished a solid 18 miler 8 days ago.

The only workout missed was this past weekend's 5k race. It was sub-zero windchills, so we decided against it. Its a mild disappointment. I was looking forward to getting a progress report. Our last time trial was over 7 weeks ago when we did a 2mi TT.

Regardless, I'm positive that after the 5 weeks of Intervals and other Ph2 quality workouts that we are in better shape than 6-7 weeks ago.

Okay, on to Phase 3!

Jan 15, 2006 6:19 PM

DRF Phase 2 - Marathon Plan A

New Runners

Training

Competition

Age Groups

Fitness

The Lighter Side

Feedback

Related Links