what should my 440 feel like?

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ahmusely

53 posts since
Jan 10, 2006

Jan 30, 2006 9:44 AM

what should my 440 feel like?

Hello!

I am an X cross-country runner from high school (I was only able to make j.v. due to poor nutrition and over training so my 5k was 22:00). Now I am a 29 y.o. female, already in good cardiovascular conditioning due to being a gym rat for the past year (doing cardio by uphill walking and jogging combos) and I've been following the intermediate program for 10k's very very recently (like past 2 weeks) since I want to do a couple awesome 10k's before I do my next 1/2 marathon in May.

My question is that on cool running's training site I was instructed to run 440's at my 5k pace but I'm not sure where that pace is exactly.... I gauged my 5k pace on like a 7:30 mile figuring that I'm older and not as in shape as I was in XC. It feels difficult but not nearly as horrible as I recall our workouts during cross country. Maybe because we were training for a race that was 1/2 the distance of a 10k? Anyhow, when I run between a 7 and 6:50 minute mile I feel like I'm just about toast but I can do the repeats when I take a one lap rest period. At a 7:30 pace I'm struggling but it definitely feels like I have room to go faster.

I'm wondering how horrible I should feel on a typical 440? Sounds funny I'm sure but, hey, I come from some painful training in cross country!

Another question I have is, given my 440 speed what would you expect my 10k to be? I ran my half marathon with a 9:45 10k time I know I could have been faster but I held back knowing that I had 1/2 the race to complete still. Ideally, I'd love to run a 10k with an 8:40 min mile and just taper my times down, if possible, from there.

I run about 30 miles per week and weight train (light weights) 2-3 times per week. On easy runs I average a 10:20 mile on very hilly terrain and this feels challenging but not horrible.

All input would be sooooooooooooooo appreciated.
Thanks my running experts!

AndyHass

1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

1. Jan 30, 2006 1:57 PM

in response to: ahmusely

You probably recall the 440s being so horrible in high school XC because HSers tend to hammer everything...I know I did. With one lap recovery, they should feel fast with maybe a little bit of discomfort and burn at the end...you should not struggle to run them all about the same time though.

The only exception would be if you are truly trying to build up the ability to run through building lactic acid...then you'd take longer rests and they WOULD be pretty difficult.

It is impossible to determine your 10k time from you 440 time. I know a guy who just ran a 1:58 800m (I ran 2:13), yet I can run sub-16 for 5k and he is a 16:30 guy.

dmichaelp

90 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

2. Jan 30, 2006 5:40 PM

in response to: ahmusely

Ah, the high school 440: 150 yards of adrenaline high, 150 yards of anxiety and doubt, 140 yards of pain.

sedentiary

52 posts since
May 3, 2005

3. Dec 20, 2007 9:37 PM

in response to: ahmusely

If you run 440s at 5K pace the breaks need to be very short, certainly much shorter than one easy lap.

Put it another way: 440s at 5K pace with one easy lap rest is an easy cruise.

At 5K pace with your 5K time I would run two times 8 mins for example as a moderately hard workout.

http://This message has been edited by sedentiary (edited Feb-01-2006).

Phoenix72

19 posts since
Nov 10, 2005

4. Feb 2, 2006 8:51 AM

in response to: ahmusely

Have you read the Daniels' Running Formula? He has tables in there that tell you how fast you should run a 440 and other speed sessions. You have to use your current actual time, not your PR from high school though. You look up that current time in the table and you get a "VDOT" value. That VDOT value tells you how fast you should run your easy runs, 440s, everything...It is important to use the time that you have recently accomplished, not your goal time. Then, as you progress and you get faster race times, you can update your VDOT value and your training becomes more intense. When it becomes more intense, however, your body is more fit and able to handle it.

I'm not ready for speedwork yet, because I don't have the mileage base and I haven't been running for 6 months yet, but once I am, I can really see that chart becoming valuable. It already gives me an idea of how fast I should run to get certain benefits without overdoing it to the point of risking injury. HTH!

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Tchuck

554 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

5. Feb 2, 2006 8:17 PM

in response to: ahmusely

You appear to have decent genetics but I still don't think you should be doing 400 speed intervals with your lack of aerobic base. You don't know what a pace feels like because you haven't run enough to experience different paces. Most of us who incorporate speed intervals know almost exactly what certain paces feel like.

I know you are following the training plan on this site but you would be better off (and will probably get faster by doing so) by putting in the miles at a slower pace or just do a tempo run on this speed day. Tempo runs can be valuable for you at a moderately hard pace. And then focus on striders 6 - 8 20 second striders toward the end of your easier runs. Trust us!

Tchuck

554 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

6. Dec 20, 2007 9:37 PM

in response to: ahmusely

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tchuck:
http://B]....with your lack of aerobic base..... /B<HR>

I meant your recent lack of running experience. You appear to have some aerobic base from your long time cardio training but power walking and running are two different things.

JaiRunner

107 posts since
Mar 8, 2005

7. Feb 3, 2006 10:19 AM

in response to: ahmusely

Daniels is the man!

His book is only about 20 bucks and worth twice that. It explains everything. While its a little scientific for the general runner, you can use the tables to figure out exactly what you are doing.

5k pace is really good, if you are doing one workout per week. If you feel its is too easy, you can shorten the rest a little. But that pace is really beneficial for increasing your cardiovascular ability.

Tchuck

554 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

8. Feb 3, 2006 11:55 AM

in response to: ahmusely

Running411searcher:

Here are some good links to tempo running and its benefits. A lot of great info that may educate you on its importance to someone like you. As far as speedwork goes, it only makes you faster for a short distance - tempo running builds stamina so that you are faster for a longer distance (especially forsomeone with your recent lack of running experience). After you are trained and have a super aerobic running base will speed work sharpen you up. Hope this helps.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=248995&thread=248888[/URL" target="_blank">

http://wls3.com/running/temporunning.php[/URL" target="_blank">

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Phoenix72

19 posts since
Nov 10, 2005

9. Dec 20, 2007 9:37 PM

in response to: ahmusely

quote:<HR>Originally posted by sedentiary:

At 5K pace with your 5K time I would run two times 8 mins for example as a moderately hard workout.
http://This message has been edited by sedentiary (edited Feb-01-2006).<HR>

To clarify, I believe the 5K time is from ten years ago. I ran a 20 minute 5K 16 years ago, but I'm not anywhere that now. I currently feel good running 9:30 miles for an easy run. The hardest thing I'm leaning about starting over as an adult is that running takes a lot of time and patience. It's discouraging to remember coming up to speed quickly as a teen but having to work on it as an adult. Now that I hurt my back (probably from overdoing it), I've been made keenly aware of the need to plan running over the long term (i.e. think years) and not expect dramatic short-term improvements or come-backs. I want that 20 minute time again and I feel like I can do it again at some point, but there are no short-cuts.

Running as a teen gives me certain advantages now, I believe. I have good form, great cadence, good learned habits and my muscles seem to remember how to do it all. It feels very natural. But I've had to let go of my running past when looking at my current fitness and potential. I've had to see myself, as Tchuck says, as a beginner runner again. I don't see why you can't recapture your times and even improve them, but I think you need to think longer-term or risk injury and burn-out. Best of luck!

Thanks for the links, Tchuck. I plan on reading them.

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Jan 30, 2006 9:44 AM

what should my 440 feel like?

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