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31 Replies Last post: May 11, 2006 7:17 PM by Sun Raider   Go to original post 1 2 3 Previous Next
Click to view donnyl's profile Legend 590 posts since
Nov 9, 2007
15. May 4, 2006 5:22 PM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
quote:<HR>Originally posted by cowardlylion:
And my preferred site for this woodshed? The Lake Erie islands (summer) or the Florida Keys (winter).

[/B]<HR>


Have you spent any time in the Florida Keys? Long thin network of Islands. One road to run on, no hills, hot. You might die of boredom before you finished your quest.
Click to view denton083's profile Pro 199 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
16. May 4, 2006 8:45 PM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
..easy ....'once a runner'......
Click to view Johnny J013's profile Legend 358 posts since
May 21, 2003
17. May 4, 2006 11:55 PM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
quote:<HR>Originally posted by AndyHass:
"Not to hijack the thread-- but interested Andy in what "weekly VO2 changing over to longer power intervals" means. Could you elaborate for the neophyte trying to learn something? Thanks."

From January to mid-March I ran on the indoor track...intervals sessions like 8X800m w/90sec recovery, 6X1000m w/2min recovery, and 5X1600m w/3min recovery. I considered these VO2 intervals because the recovery was kept reasonably short and theh intervals done at a max suustainable pace throughout the workout (800s sub-5k, 1000s ~5k, 1600s JUST over 5k). These workouts made me very comfortable at a fast pace and made me feel like I had a bit of anaerobic endurance too.

After a goal HM was over, I switched to longer intervals...2K, 3K, 3X15min, and recently 3X5K repeats. Rest was shorter in comparison to the earlier, shorter workouts. The point of these workouts was to take the VO2 ability and build on it with high-end aerobic endurance created through larger volume at a faster pace. The paces on these workouts started around 10K pace for the 2Ks and slowed from there (I aimed for HM pace minus 5sec/mile for the 5Ks last night but didn't get it due to heat problems).

The result is that I did not feel quite as comfortable running 5K/10K pace as I did in March, but I was faster and able to hold the pace longer. This was for marathon training, for shorter races I'd have mixed things differently.
<HR>


Thank you.
Click to view cowardlylion's profile Pro 107 posts since
Feb 1, 2006
18. May 5, 2006 8:31 AM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
laker, yes I have spent time in the Keys and could barely get myself on the plane to go home. By 2008 there will be a continuous bikeway from Key Largo to Key West, 106 miles in all, so you can run from island to island. As for hills, there are none aside from bridges where I live now, so I lose nothing. I do 20 milers on a rail-trail with precious little besides cornfields around me; running on an old railroad bridge with nothing but ocean on all sides would be a nice step up.

Key West would hardly be a retreat away from all worldy distractions, but Big Pine Key can be.

http://dep.state.fl.us/gwt/state/keystrail/[/URL" target="_blank">

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Click to view donnyl's profile Legend 590 posts since
Nov 9, 2007
19. May 5, 2006 11:39 AM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
C-Lion,

To each his own I guess. I'm originally from Mass.Lived in South Florida for six years and hated it. I found the training brutally monotonous. Moved to N.C. 11 years ago and am in heaven: hills, seasons, scenery, perfect winter training weather, NASCAR (well almost heaven).
Click to view formationflier's profile Legend 989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007
21. May 5, 2006 2:09 PM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
I can make it a little bit more interesting by going to 6 1/2 months.
6 1/2 months ago, my PRs were as follows:

50 mile race: 10:34
marathon: 3:54
10 mile: 77:XX

Today, my PRs are:

50 mile race (same one): 8:28
marathon: 3:12:43
10 mile: 69:12

You know what I've been doing. My PR marathon topped off a 73 mile
running week and was my 6th marathon or ultra since mid-February.

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Click to view formationflier's profile Legend 989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007
23. Dec 20, 2007 9:47 PM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
quote:<HR>Originally posted by KudzuRunner:
J

What I see is that your average pace slowed way down for a while in midwinter--to 10:15 pace or so. Yet you emerged from this period a stronger and faster runner, clearly, and ultimately notched those extremely impressive PRs. Please explain, in your inimitably clear and reasonable way, what was going on here. I suspect there's a lesson about low heart rate training.

http://This message has been edited by KudzuRunner (edited May-05-2006).
<HR>


Yes, indeed. In fact, I have to update the statement about that
in my FAQ at the end, because it's now a bit stale. As you know, my
results are based on developing massive aerobic base and just trying
to hang on to most of the speed and strength I already had. What I've
seen so far is that when I do all of my mileage well into my aerobic
zone (very low heart rates), my aerobic base continues to improve,
my pace at lower heart rates improves, and subsequently, my pace
at higher heart rates improves as well, as long as I am "mostly
aerobic" (well below anaerobic threshold, respiratory quotients in
training less than about .87). However, when I get to a point when
I'm running a high percentage of mileage (at least I believe it boils
down to percentage of overall training volume) where I'm running up
nearabouts my lactate threshold (using mostly anaerobic properties)
my pace at low heart rates withers. Since I go back to the low heart
rates for my training runs at that point (rather than just stick with
whatever pace feels right), my overall pace goes down temporarily.
So, in October/November of 05, this was my peak race time. I ran 5
marathons, one 50 miler, a 26.2k, and one 10k race during that
period (I think that covers it). Because of all the racing during those
months, my overall pace is high (although the 50 miler at an average
pace of 10 min/mile slows things down) However, all of the
higher heart rate activity withered away my aerobic base, dropping
my pace per given heart rate. Then, to put the cherry on top, after
my last 10k of the season in early December, I decided to take a
break and I cut all volume way down. As is the case when my running
cuts back, I got sick. Then I basically started back up in January,
almost from square one (but not nearly as bad as when I had first
done aerobic base building). I rebuilt from Jan through mid-February
and ran a tune-up marathon, then ran several more marathons and
ultras every 1, 2, or 3 weeks, until last weekend. In this case, I
maintained substantial weekly aerobic training volume such that
the percentage of high heart rate stuff, still remained low, even with
26 miles of racing sprinkled in. The marathons nudged my pace
down a little bit, but nothing substantial, and when my race times
are sprinkled in, the pace tends to look on the "fast" side (fast
for me, not for most of the folks here). Perhaps more meaningful
than to look at overall pace, would be to break it down in my log
to paces for:
training runs
long runs
races
treadmill runs
I've spent enough time at this now that I'm beginning to understand
the trends and they are pretty consistent. For me.


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Click to view ljwoodw's profile Legend 550 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
24. May 5, 2006 6:38 PM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
quote:<HR>Originally posted by KudzuRunner:
Inspirational stories, please. <HR>


Well, there's always me.

I ran (badly) in high school - I never broke 18 in 5K. I stopped in college, but never fell too far out of shape. In July 2004, before my senior year, I went for a run with a high school kid who ran me into the ground. Embarassed and inspired, I took up running again. My progress was pretty much as one would expect that fall, going from non-runner to 17:36 5K. My first marathon was that February in 3:03, and in April I ran 2:54. That was a great race for me and representative of my level of fitness. This was all fairly reasonable progress, but the real strides didn't come until after this.

As of April, 2005: 2:54
As of October, 2005: 2:42
As of April, 2006: 2:35

What happened? I increased mileage considerably from about 50-60 to 75-90 by October. This winter, I was actually doing 90-100 consistently. I didn't race often, except for in short bursts leading up to and a few weeks after a marathon. Sometimes I felt extremely tired. But my body adapted to the mileage and when it was time, I was able to run a few workouts as well.

My opinion is different than that of many people in that I don't see racing as a great way to gauge your fitness in the off-season. For example, I raced three times in June, running 17:36 for 5K, then 17:01, and then running 38:35 for 10K. It was 88 degrees in the first and third races and great conditions in the second one. I raced once in July, and ran 50:00 for 8 miles. Once again, it was in the mid-eighties and humid. Unless conditions are fairly consistent, I just don't know how much you can learn from that.
Click to view MilebyMile's profile Legend 308 posts since
Aug 15, 2007
25. May 6, 2006 10:48 AM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
Great Topic!

Sounds to me like if you had to summarize in a simple way.
Put in the distance and dont focus on the races but the training until your big coming out party.
Click to view zoomharp's profile Pro 130 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
26. May 7, 2006 1:08 PM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
Just a little background on the "woodshed" term. The musician working on a piece would drill the various sections so repeatedly that he/she was not 'welcome,' shall we say, in the house, and was sent to the woodshed to practice. If you can imagine someone playing the same 3 measures of some difficult piece in excess of 100 times, you will get the picture. Musicians will often say things like "I'll have to woodshed that section of music..."

-Symphony musician and (slow) marathoner
Click to view sea biscuit's profile Amateur 12 posts since
Mar 17, 2004
28. May 10, 2006 1:32 AM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
I just posted something to this effect on another thread but thought it appropriate to speak about here as well . . .

About five or six years ago, I got into marathoning. That said, I have been a runner since the craze kind of began in the 70s. It was actually my Dad who got me started when I was about 12 or 13. Through the years, I had always been a good runner, but mostly a recreational runner who would run about 30 miles a week for fitness.

When I finally got into marathoning, that changed. I got really serious and quickly progressed from running about a four hour marathon to flirting with, but not quite managing to achieve, a sub 3. I began working with a coach, and improved a decent amount, but nothing earth shattering.

Then, last year, I made what I consider to be the most profound change I've made to my program . . . I lost weight. A bit of a gym rat as well, I did this in part by laying off the strength training, but I also paid very close attention to my diet, using some well respected formulas to calculate my caloric needs then restricting my intake by about 250 calories per day.

Frankly, running 60 to 70 miles per week, I'd been under the impression that I could eat as much as I wanted, and it turns out that this was definitely not the case; turns out it is possible to run A LOT and still not shed excess weight.

In any case, the result of this loss? Not only did I run PRs at every distance in my run up to Boston, I PR'd on that storied course, breaking 3 hours by 4 seconds on a 70-degree day. And since then, I've continued to run a PR in almost every race I've run since.

Admittedly, I definitely intensified my training a bit as well, going from 2 longs a month to 3, upping the mileage a bit more, and adding some additional tempo runs, but I know that the weight loss has made the biggest difference. I went from finishing in the top 30 sort of thing to finishing in the top 5 to 10 at most smaller, area races.

The rule I've heard is 3 secs per mile faster for every pound lost, and I would agree wholeheartedly.

All this said, I do have on lurking suspicion, and that is is that the most important catalyst to growth is change. Weightlifters know that if they don't change their programs every six weeks or so, it's all too easy to simply plateau. Even if you're working hard, the body seems to adapt and hold fast once it has gotten used to a certain set of stressors.

I'm beginning to notice a similar effect in my running. More specifically, the first time I had a breakout marathon preformance was when I bumped my mileage from about 600 to about 900 miles in preparation. Prior to that I had been bonking and running 3:09, 3:05, that kind of thing. The first year I upped the mileage, I ran 3:00:25 and would have broken three but for some intestinal distress that caused a little slowdown. But most importantly, I finished strong for the first time ever. I was elated. I figured just a bit of fine tuning and I had it, but in the five years that followed, despite the fact that I was running the mileage more comfortably than before and racing at shorter distances better than ever, I just went back to my old finishes and times. Not until I upped the workload again and kind of shocked my body did I finally break 3 and then go on to run an even faster marathon 6 months later. Sadly, however, despite having had my best training season ever in the run up to this year's Boston--again, with PRs in every prep race--I bonked again trying to run 2:54. What all this makes me suspect is that we are a bit like junkies, that once our body gets used to a certain workload, we need to really up the ante if we want to exact a greater performance. I'm not certain of this, but again, it's becoming a bit of a suspicion.

With that in mind, I stand by the fact that the only word I can use following my weight loss is "turbocharged"; it's the best thing I've ever done for my running!
Click to view Hairy Trotter's profile Expert 46 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
29. May 11, 2006 10:02 AM in response to: kudzurunner
Re: Remaking yourself as a (faster) runner in six months....
Great thread. I can't add to it because I have no inspirational stories to tell, unless tales of grumpy dudes getting fat inspire you.

Still, Kudz, thanks for kicking this up.