According to time predictors if you run a 8:00 pace marathon - Your 1/2 marathon pace = 7:38. But that assumes that you have enough stamina to make the predictor accurate. A half marathon Pace of 7:20 would indicate the ability to run a marathon at 7:42 pace if you had the stamina.

To answer your question - You want to run enough miles to get the legs warmed up - What you did should be fine = 2-3 miles. 1/2 marathon pace for 4 miles should not tire you out that much and you should be able to do the cool down 1-2 miles. If it were me - I would not leave more than 1-2 miles to do after the 1/2 MP run.

I am not saying you are not working when running 4 @ 1/2 MP, just that it should not leave you very tired after.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by WI MTP:
According to time predictors if you run a 8:00 pace marathon - Your 1/2 marathon pace = 7:38. But that assumes that you have enough stamina to make the predictor accurate. A half marathon Pace of 7:20 would indicate the ability to run a marathon at 7:42 pace if you had the stamina.

<snip>
<HR>

I agree your HM pace seems way too fast. I'm training for 7'40 MP and I'm doing my tempo runs are around 7'20. Your tempo runs should be closer to 7'40 or so.

To answer your question, I've been doing my tempo runs in the middle of the run instead of the end. This gives me a chance to warm up and cool down. I've found that I feel much better after these workouts than when I run the tempo pace at the end of the run.

I've trained for my last 2 marathons using Pfitz's 55 mpw programs and I'm currently using the same for Chicago. My goal pace has been and is 8 min/mile (3:30 marathon).

The training sessions you describe are Pfitz's LT runs where half of the distance is to be run at a pace that is between your 15K and HM pace. According to McMillan, 15K = 7:26 min/mile and HM = 7:36 min/mile for a 3:30 goal marathon.

When the total distance is 8 miles, I run the first 3 at 8:45 - 9:00 min/mile. Just enough to get warmed up and comfortable at a relaxed, non-taxing pace. Then I run the next 4 at 15K to HM pace. The 8th mile is the cool down and I run it at whatever SLOW pace is comfortable.

I also learned the hard way (as you did) that an even pace during the warm-up as well as the LT part is essential to being able to complete the session in a way that will be beneficial to your fitness.

Good luck with your next LT run!

I'd do it exactly as "only" suggests. 3 mi warmup, 4 mi tempo, 1 mi warmdown. Warm into the tempo portion from below.

There's a deep structural problem, it seems to me, with the whole idea of calculators using race results to prescribe certain paces not just that one might run in races of longer duration, but that one should use as a guide to training paces--"half marathon pace," "marathon pace," and the like.
Here's the problem. The calculator works from whatever race result you put into it. Usually we work from a race result that we obtained on a good day--when we were well-trained, tapered, ready to go.

But I never run my tempo runs on those legs. I always run them untapered, in the middle of a training week. Sometimes I make the second half of a two-hour run into a de facto tempo run at half-marathon EFFORT, based on HR and a general memory of what half-marathon effort is supposed to be.

When I do that, though, I end up running a pace that's quite a bit slower than the pace I actually run my half-marathons at. For example, on two successive weekends I ran the last 63 minutes of a 2:05 run at 89% HR max (174 of 196), and averaged 7:52 pace. I was working at half-marathon pace effort. But the half marathon I actually ran four weeks later I ran at exactly 7:00 pace. Because I was rested, it was a cold perfect day, I was adrenalized.

Now, if I'd tried to run 7:00 pace for the last 7 miles of my 15 miler, after 8 easy miles of warmup--a strenous but not unprecedented "half marathon pace tempo run"--on the training day in question: well, I'd have been running more at 10K effort. I'd literally have run myself into the ground.

It's worth remembering this when you're working a tempo run and not quite keeping up with what you're "supposed" to be running. "Supposed" is an illusion. Sometimes, of course, it's important to do some running at the actual pace you hope to maintain, since economy at that specific pace is a trained-in thing.

But remember what Pfitz suggests: start your long runs at 20% slower than MP and finish at 10% slower. If your imputed (calculator-ed) MP is 7:30, he suggests that you start at 9:00 and finish with 8:15s. Why? He explains that 8:15s, in training, pretty much develop the specific muscles (and thus economy) that 7:30 pace will require on race day--where as LSD mileage, at 9:00 pace, doesn't do that.

7:30 -------> 8:15 is a 45-second spread. That's a lot. Sort of like my 7:52 -------->7:00 spread.

What Pfitz DOESN'T say, but could have, is that 8:15 pace at the end of a long run probably puts your HR pretty close to actual marathon pace HR, i.e., the HR you'll be able to hit at 7:30 on race day, when you're fully tapered, glycogen-stuffed, adrenalized, etc.

Sorry to hijack the thread. This has just been on my mind for a while. I haven't seen it discussed, and it should be.

http://This message has been edited by KudzuRunner (edited Jun-16-2006).

Kudzu,

Thanks for the insightful interpretation. You are absolutely right, the PR times used in the calculators are acheived post taper, not in the middle of a training program. A point I never realized. Like Cliif, I too am gassed after these workouts, sometimes so much that I am not able to complete the entire LT portion. I will experiment with "perceived" paces and see how that goes.

Great question.

I've been wearing my HR monitor on pretty much every run since January, and I think I've finally begun to figure this sort of issue out.

My max HR is 198, to begin with. I achieved that as I crossed the line of a hard 5-mile race on a hot day. An accurate reading. Prior to that, I'd achieved 196 as a max in various hard workouts and assumed it was my max. Either one works fine.

After working various HR ranges on long runs and medium runs, I've pretty much figured out that 170 or so is marathon pace (MP) effort and 175 or so is half marathon pace (HMP). That's 86% of max (MP) and 88% (HMP). I also know that about 177 (89%) is my threshold HR--although I've also found in several fast-finish long runs that I seem to be able to stabilize around 180 or so after 12-13 miles.

This morning I ran 10+ miles in a local park in 70/cool conditions. (Cool for Mississippi in late June!). I felt great because of the weather, but there was a slight lingering tiredness in my legs from Sunday's 16-miler. Normally I take two easy days after my Sunday long run, but I wanted to try something different this week.

I ran my first mile at 9:45 pace and slowly picked it up, tracking my HR as I went. Normally I keep it at 148 or below (my 75% level) for the first 3-4, but today, feeling good, I let it rise into the mid 150s. By 4 miles I was working just under 160, which is a good, comfortable medium-high aerobic pace for me--81%, and what many people might call "steady" rather than easy. Not hard at all once I'm warmed up, but also not a pace I'd want to be doing in mile 2 of a 10 mile run.

I pretty much kept the throttle there until I hit the 7-mile point. Then I pushed a bit and took it up to 170-171. I could feel slightly different muscles being worked, and after a minute or two I felt very stable at this pace--marathon pace, slightly sub-maximal aerobic pace, call it what you want. I really caught the groove and could have held it for 45-60 minutes, if it was a Sunday morning and I wanted to put a hard 15-miler in the can. My pace varied, because the loop I run on has rises and falls. Mile 8 was 7:52; mile 9 was 7:38, all at MP HR.

I pushed even harder in the final mile, to 175-177. Right around threshold--which is where a 1:32 half-marathoner runs his race. My last mile was 7:20 or so. Twenty seconds slower than "half marathon pace," but very much at the proper effort.

It was a beautiful run--the best of the summer so far. It was great because I ran for 1:26 (an average pace of 8:22) and didn't once angst about what pace I was "supposed" to be running. I just started gently, opened the throttle slowly, used my HR monitor to keep myself in check for the first 2/3 of the run, pushed hard but not above threshold at the end, and know that I did exactly what I'm supposed to be doing at this point in the training cycle, when I'm still building mileage.

This is a new way of running for me, frankly. I feel as though I've finally internalized the lessons of John Kellogg, who basically says: start slow, stay slow-ish longer than you think you need to, ascend slowly into a high aerobic near-threshold pace, and pull the plug before you start straining.

He's right! It works. And the HR monitor, once you learn how your own effort zones really stack up, is an extremely useful tool.

I used to get out there and, if I was feeling good, start pushing at the throttle within a mile or two, no matter how far I was running. I had no idea what "easy distance" felt like. Either I ran short slow recovery runs, or I got out there on my "hard day," put in a slowish first mile, then started working it--and pushing right up to MP/HMP, I now realize, long before I need to be there. Then I'd hammer, and strain, and think I was getting a good workout.

Today I got a good workout. I didn't go over threshold once. In a month, of course, I can start fartleking, hitting the hills hard, whatever I want to do. But I'll remember how and when to put in the sort of relaxed progression run I put in this morning.

So in answer to your question: Figure out, through trial and error, what HR corresponds to your lactate threshold. Slightly lower than that (depending on how good a runner you are) is your HMP HR. Learn what that feels like! 5-10 beats below that is your MP HR. Learn what that feels like! Learn how to work smoothly, after a warmupof 3-4 miles, into those HRs. Learn how to hold whatever pace accompanies those HRs for a number of miles. And don't worry too much about what the calculators say you should be running. Your own body, your own heart, is the best guide.

Not trying to hijack this thread again, but would anyone care to comment on how they interpret the pacing for
"Medium Long Runs" and "General Aerobic Runs" in the Pfitz marathon plans? Do you go by HR, based off a percentage of a race pace, or by feel.

I understand the VO2 (5k pace), LT/Tempo (1/2 Marathon pace), Long runs (20% below MP moving to 10% below MP), and that recovery should be <75% MHR, but I guess I'm looking for what people finds works for them for General Aerobic and Med-Long.


Thanks.