A 3 hour marathon training program

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conflan

28 posts since
Aug 12, 2005

15. Jun 25, 2006 9:31 AM

in response to: conflan

Desert Tortoise,

thanks for the article, much appreciated. You are like an online coach/guru. I have 2 more questions that I hope you can help me out with;

1. I have being doing sub 20 min 5ks on the treadmill at least once a week for the last couple of weeks, would this be considered a tempo run at LT levels and is it fast & long enough (for a 3 hour marathon) and do I need to do it more frequently (sorry I have sneaked a couple of questions into this one heading!)

2. I have a heart rate monitor but never used it much, to find my LT level is it simply a matter of getting on the treadmill and running 15k as if it were a race, monitoring the max HR over the 15k and thereafter deduce that my LT level is at about 80-90% of this effort level.

Sorry if these questions appear simplistic or naive but I never took a scientific approach to running before (but the wisdom of doing so has quickly dawned on me as I have increased the lenght of my runs).

Again thanks for the advice to date..................cf

Jay Soffian (Cool Running)

170 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

16. Dec 20, 2007 9:49 PM

in response to: conflan

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Desert Tortoise:
When fit athletes bonk at the 30 Km mark, it's because they just ran too close to their lactate threshold.<HR>

I resemble that remark. Here's what it looked like:

Mile: HR / Time / Delta (from 8:23 pace)
1: 154 / 8:12.8 / -0:10.7
2: 161 / 8:16.3 / -0:17.8
3: 162 / 8:26.2 / -0:15.1
4: 160 / 8:09.7 / -0:28.8
5: 160 / 8:14.2 / -0:38.1
6: 160 / 8:22.8 / -0:38.7
7: 159 / 8:19.5 / -0:42.7
8: 158 / 8:34.8 / -0:31.4
9: 158 / 8:07.6 / -0:47.2
10: 158 / 8:09.1 / -1:01.6
11: 159 / 8:34.8 / -0:50.2
12: 160 / 8:36.4 / -0:37.3
13: 158 / 7:54.7 / -1:06.0
14: 158 / 8:10.9 / -1:18.6
15: 159 / 8:22.9 / -1:19.1
16: 160 / 9:00.3 / -0:42.3
17: 158 / 8:28.9 / -0:36.9
18: 158 / 9:00.2 / -0:00.1
19: 157 / 9:23.9 / 1:00.3
20: 155 / 9:32.1 / 2:09.0
21: 147 / 10:38.1 / 4:23.6
22: 146 / 10:16.3 / 6:16.5
23: 142 / 11:07.0 / 9:00.0
24: 142 / 10:38.8 / 11:15.3
25: 143 / 10:57.4 / 13:49.3
26: 142 / 11:12.4 / 16:38.2
26.2: 155 / 1:54.2 / 16:42.3

Finish: 3:56:42 (goal was 3:40).

CCM '04. Pretty obvious I'd say. Simply not enough miles training for that race and not enough race-specific (in this case, hills) mileage.

I've since acquired and read both Advanced Marathoning and Daniel's Running Formula. These books really complement each other so I'll recommend them again even though they've already been mentioned. DRF is background material for AM. There is some overlap between the two so if you buy only one, make it AM.

I'm currently following Pfitz's 24/55 plan and hope to run a 3:30 at the obxmarathon with it. Depending upon how I do I'd like my next marathon to be a BQ (3:15 for me).

Anyway, training is going great so far. I started my base building in March and the gradual mileage increase has me running a lot more miles a lot more comfortably than I ever have before.

About HRMs. I wear an HRM on my long runs and in races. On long runs it's basically just to chart my performance and to keep me from killing myself on hot summer days. During races it's to keep me from running the first few miles much too fast. Here's what a successful use of an HRM got me in my last half:

1: 7:47 / 155 (HR)
2: 7:35 / 166
3: 7:35 / 165
4: 7:30 / 165
5: 7:37 / 165
6: 7:54 / 163
7: 7:54 / 161
8: 7:39 / 159
9: 7:41 / 163
10: 7:36 / 163
11: 7:44 / 162
12: 7:53 / 162
13: 7:41 / 164
.1: 0:43 / 168

Good luck,

j.

http://This message has been edited by jaysoffian (edited Jun-29-2006).

conflan

28 posts since
Aug 12, 2005

17. Jul 7, 2006 1:03 PM

in response to: conflan

Desert Tortoise,

could you please have a look at the program below and tell me if you think its crazy to attempt this. I am up at about 40 miles pw at the moment. Thanks

SUB 3H05 MARATHON
Week 24/7/06 WEEK 1

Mon AM: 5 mile run
PM: Track/ 7 x 1000 meter. 200 meters recover. 9.4
Tue 7 miles easy run 7
Wed AM/PM: 30 minutes run. At PM do 8 stride fast and control. 4.5
Thu AM: 6 miles easy
PM: 7 miles run incorporating the last 3 miles 10 second faster than race goal pace 13
Fri AM/PM: 6 miles according to how your body feels. 6
Sat 10 miles run 10
Sun 7 miles easy run 7
57

WEEK 31/7/06 WEEK 2

Mon 6 miles easy jog ( get deep tissues massage) 6
Tue 10 miles run incorporating 7x3 minutes at marathon pace all with 2 minutes recover. (fartleck training) 10
Wed AM: 6 miles easy
PM: 15x400 with 50 second recover. Always do 2 for warm up and cool down. 9.75
Thu 8 miles easy run 8
Fri AM/PM 6 miles run. At PM do 8 stride fast but control. 6
Sat Long Run. 17 miles 17
Sun Take the day off or you can run 3 miles easy. 0
57

WEEK 7/8/06 WEEK 3

Mon 10 miles run. 8 strides at the end of your run. 10
Tue AM: 6 miles easy
PM: Specific track. (you may have to do this work out once again to find out how much you improve.) Do 5x2000, 400 meter recover. 12.2
Wed 7 miles easy 7
Thu AM: 5 miles
PM: 10 miles incorporating 10 by 30 second burst around the 5 miles.
Run last miles 10 second faster than marathon pace. (6:50) Or at least close to it. 15
Fri AM/PM: 7 miles easy 7
Sat 11 miles run 11
Sun 6 miles easy 6
68

WEEK 14/8/06 WEEK 4

Mon Off
Tue AM: 5 miles run
PM: Track: 4x400/ 2x1000/ 4x400 All with 1 minutes recover. 400 meters between set. 8
Wed 4 miles easy 4
Thu AM/PM: 7 miles 7
Fri 4 miles easy 4
Sat 8 miles easy 8
Sun 7 miles easy run 7
38

WEEK 21/8/06 WEEK 5

Mon 10km race 6
Tue AM/PM: 6 miles run. At PM run 10 strides after the run. 6
Wed 8 miles run. Last 5 minutes fast as you can. 8
Thu AM: 6 miles
PM: Fartleck: 2 sets of 1/3/2/4 all with 1 minute recover and 3 minutes between sets. 6
Fri 5 miles easy 5
Sat 18 miles long run. Try to run your last 3 miles faster than marathon pace.
18
Sun 6 miles easy run 6
55

WEEK 28/8/06 WEEK 6

Mon AM/PM: 6 miles run 6
Tue AM: 5 miles easy
PM: 8x1000, 200 meter recover. 10
Wed AM/PM: 7 miles 7
Thu 8 miles run. Do 10 stride at the end of your run. 8
Fri AM: 5 miles easy
PM: Long Fartleck. Choose a 10 miles loop. After warn up for 2 miles do 8 minutes/7/6/5/4/3/2/1 all 2 minutes recover Then finish the distance . Get massage. But not deep. 15
Sat 7 miles easy 7
Sun 6 miles easy. ( get deep tissues massage) 6
59

WEEK 4/9/06 WEEK 7

Mon 5 miles jog 5
Tue 5 miles 5
Wed AM/PM: 7 miles run. At PM do 15 x 1 minutes with 1 min. recover 7
Thu AM/PM: 6 miles easy 6
Fri 5 miles 5
Sat 20 miles long run. 3
Sun Off. Get a massage

31

WEEK 11/9/06 WEEK 8

Mon Half marathon race 13
Tue 6 miles easy 6
Wed 8 miles run. Some strides. 8
Thu AM: 6 miles
PM: Track: 5x800/1mile all out/ 400 all out/200 meter recover between 800 and 5 minutes recover between sets. 8
Fri AM/PM 7 miles 7
Sat 12 miles easy run. 12
Sun 7 miles easy run 7

61

WEEK 18/9/06 WEEK 9

Mon 6 miles easy. Get deep tissues massage. 6
Tue AM/PM 25 minutes run 4
Wed AM/PM: 7 miles. At PM do 10 strides. 7
Thu AM: 6 miles
PM: 15 x 400 divide it in 3 sets of 5. 50 second recover between 400; 400 meter recover between sets. 10
Fri AM/PM: 6 miles easy 6
Sat 20 miles long run 20
Sun Off

53

WEEK 25/9/06 WEEK 10

Mon 8 miles run. Get deep tissues massage 8
Tue AM/PM: 5 miles easy 5
Wed 8 miles run some strides 8
Thu AM: 6 miles
PM: 8 x 1000. 200 meters recover 11
Fri AM/ PM: 7 miles 7
Sat 10k race. ( last race before marathon) 6
Sun Off. Go to the movies. Forget about running.

45

WEEK 2/10/06 WEEK 11

Mon 4 miles easy 4
Tue 6 miles easy 6
Wed 6 miles. Do some strides. 6
Thu 7 miles incorporating the last 3 miles 10 second faster than marathon pace. (6:50 or better) 7
Fri Off
Sat 12 miles run 12
Sun AM: 5 miles easy
PM: 5 x 2000. 5 second faster than the first 2000 done on week # 3 11
46

WEEK 9/10/06 WEEK 12

Mon 6 miles some strides. 6
Tue AM: 4 miles
PM: Track. 2x400/2x800/1x1000/2x400. All 1 minutes recover. 6.5
Wed 4 miles easy. Get a soft massage 4
Thu Off
Fri 20 minutes easy jog
Sat 20 minutes easy jog

conflan

28 posts since
Aug 12, 2005

18. Jul 10, 2006 1:37 PM

in response to: conflan

Desert Tortoise,

thanks for the sound advice. I actually feel a little beat already so I have taken an iron supplement as my energy levels were beginning to sag. I appreciate the time and effort you have put into this thread. I am going to take a day or two off and then see how I feel.

MM Hippo

202 posts since
Apr 28, 2006

19. Jul 10, 2006 3:51 PM

in response to: conflan

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and make a very unconventional suggestion: run a marathon as part of your training.

The problem with your original premise, and the problem with all the pace calculators out there, is that there are some serious real new problems that hit you in the jump from 21K to 42K. IMO these are far more significant than the jump from 10K to 21K -- maybe more than the jump from 5K to 21K. A good training program addresses all of these to an extent but it still leaves many first time marathoners needing a lot of luck to hit their race-day goals.

So with a three hour target find another (similar) marathon 2/3 of the way through your training program and shoot for a 3:30. Make the entire purpose of the exercise to hit an evenly-paced time. This experience should not tax you that much, and will basically remove a lot of the unpleasant race-day surprises.

I'll add that this suggestion needs all sorts of disclaimers on it. This is NOT common advice and lots of people will tell you that running a slow marathon will require like 15 weeks of tape/recovery and leave you injured, burnt out and totally ruin your training plan. Whatever. I'm just saying that the little details you encounter in a real marathon on race day can sometimes derail you.

Another disclaimer is that DT's advice is way better than mine, he's so much faster and more experienced than I am.

It's just that as someone who runs a lot of marathons right in the range where there are a lot of BQ thresholds I see a lot of disasters. The people usually pull away from me at mile 5-10, when I talk to them I'm always impressed by how well trained they are, how they run double or triple the mileage I do, follow a rigorous training plan with real workouts (unlike me.)

But there is an incredible trend I'm getting accustomed to: I have to bite my tongue to keep from saying "see you at mile 23!" because I invariably do, and they don't look so hot then. At the finish line they are invariably crushed, and typically about 12-20 minutes slower than their goals.

I'm not sure if adding a "practice marathon" to a strong training plan would help to prevent that, hence the disclaimers.

-hippo-

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wayfool

100 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

20. Jul 19, 2006 4:34 PM

in response to: conflan

Conflan,

It's amazing how similar our situations are. My goal is also run about 3 hr marathon in mid-October. I have yet to run a 10 mile race, but I ran a 7.5 mile in 47:27, and a half marathon best of 1:26 on about 40 mpw. I ran Miami back in January attempting a 3:10 pace and ended up with a 3:19. I think the heat and humidity definitely had an effect, but I started to slow around mile 18 or so, which suggests I had been running to close to anaerobic threshold, as other posters have suggested. I also think that 40 mpw is just not enough time on your feet. My basic training plan was a VO2Max/interval workout on Tuesday, 5-10 mile tempo run on Thursday, and a long run on the weekend, peaking out at 22 miles.

Clearly, the two things lacking in my program was the mileage, and longer tempo runs in which you're really simulating race conditions. I would recommend definitely getting up to the 60 mpw for at least three weeks. Also, incorporate at least one recovery week for every 2-3 weeks of increased mileage so you give your body time to recover. I think one of the key workouts I will be adding this time around are runs of between 15-20 miles in which you start at jogging pace (7:30-8:00 pace) and ramp up to marathon pace (6:50-7:00) for the last 5-10 miles. As you proceed in your training program, gradually increase the marathon pace portion.

I found these two websites particularly helpful. One is an actual training program of a guy who ran a 3:01 at the Hartford Marathon. His mileage peak is a bit up there, which I don't recommend you emulating, but you get the gist from his training schedule. The 2nd is a training schedule by Kevin Beck outlining the judicious use of these fast finish long runs that I mentioned before. It seems a bit monotonous but I'm convinced these are the key workouts to running a fast marathon.

3:01 actual training schedule
http://www.kemibe.com/kf.htm[/URL" target="_blank">

Marathon paced long runs
http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/?id=4835[/URL" target="_blank">

Best of luck to you and keep me posted and how your training is going.

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nike84

183 posts since
Aug 13, 2005

21. Jul 19, 2006 4:54 PM

in response to: conflan

quote:<HR>Originally posted by conflan:
I am training for my first marathon in the middle of October. I would like to run around the 3 hour mark. I have done some competitive 10 milers and 2 half marathons and I have used one of those on line projectors that predicts your time from prevoius races and it gives me a time for the marathon of a couple of minutes over the 3 hours.

I posted this on " Newbie" and didn't get much of a positive response, indeed some thought I was setting too high a target.

Can anyone recommend a good 3 hour training program.

Thanks for any assistance.

The Optimist<HR>

Looking at your times and your training schedule there are a couple of things I would think about. Don't ramp your mileage too much and probably a marathon in the 3:10 -3:15 range would be a good goal. I'"ve run 2 sub 2:30's and found that a combination of long runs(18-22) miles, tempo or 5k/10k races, intervals of 1 mile -2000 meters worked well. You might want to cut back on the intervals a bit and just do a run of 8-12 miles. I thinkI'm in agreement with Desert Tortoise on his advice. Just focus on getting a marathon under your belt. The marathon is a different race to run then a 10k or a 1/2 marathon. It can really go well for you or it can come back right at you. Have a great race and good luck.

kudzurunner

523 posts since
Dec 6, 2007

22. Jul 19, 2006 5:35 PM

in response to: conflan

MM Hippo:

I love your advice and wholeheartedly second it. After recovering from mono back in the early 80s, I knew that I wanted to run a fast marathon--which for a middling 25 year old back then meant breaking 2:50. I trained all summer, then did exactly as you suggested and ran a "test marathon" in mid-September, not all out, at what turned out to be 3:00:45. A flat, low-stress race, actually. My notes tell me that I ran 7:18 pace for the first 5 miles, then accelerated up to cruising speed and ran between 6:45 and 6:55 pace for the remainder. I reminded myself of what the distance was like--I'd run two previous marathons and a DNF, 17 miles @ 6:30 pace, a disaster--and I set a PR by 6 minutes.

Then, in late November, I was ready to hammer. I slightly overdid it and missed 2:50 by a couple of minutes (well, 3:30), but who could complain about a second consecutive 7:00 PR?

I learned valuable lessons from all this. One is, it's possible to run a practice marathon without killing yourself, and doing so helps remind you just how long the distance is and how important patience and steady pacing really are. Second, a fast marathon--meaning, an optimal marathon that accords with, say, McMillan's calculator--is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Or rather, it's an unexpectedly hard fish to land.

So hoping to optimize in a very first marathon outing, no matter what the 10-mile and half-marathon times say, is hoping for an awful lot--too much, I'd say.

It is FAR preferable, in my book, to reach twenty miles the first time out and realize that you've got slightly more in the tank than you'd hoped--i.e., that you've run a conservative, slightly sub-optimal race--than to do it the other way, which is, as you say, the way that far too many people who base their racing on calculators and crossed fingers tend to take. Better to have fun the first time around, learn something about the distance, and then and only then really try to hone the thing.

One for the money, two for the show.....

Then, and only then: go cat go.

aharmer

460 posts since
May 25, 2005

23. Jul 24, 2006 11:15 AM

in response to: conflan

Conflan,

I'll give you an idea for AFTER your October marathon, because you're close enough now that you probably don't want to start something completely different. Your times indicate that a sub-3 marathon is absolutely within reach and just a matter of time. The question is whether you have the aerobic capacity to do it right now. Many marathoners hit the dreaded "Wall" around 20 miles due to glycogen depletion.

When you have time, go over to the Basic Training section and check out the Maffetone low HR training thread. A guy with the screen name leitnerj started this thread a long time ago, and he has put together a FAQ section accessed through his posts. Take a look and see what you think. It involves running much slower than most people normally do, building your aerobic system and training your body to burn more fat, less glycogen at faster paces. It's not for everybody, but many people including myself have had great success. I must say my success is only theoretical at this point because I've not put it to the test in another marathon yet, but I've knocked a minute off my average training pace staying at the same HR.

My goal at Boston this year was to break 3:00. I cruised through 20 miles at 3:00 pace and hit the wall, struggling home to 3:09. I had done all the long runs with fast finishes, tempo runs, you name it. I realized that it wasn't going to be possible to train much harder than I did for that race, I had to find a way to train smarter. That's when I came across the Maffetone thread. At this point I don't know if it's actually "smarter" or not, but I already feel that I could go out and do my 3:00 marathon with only 2 months of solid aerobic training. Best of luck in October!

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JPGarland

780 posts since
Dec 7, 2007

24. Jul 24, 2006 9:10 PM

in response to: conflan

I don't know if this was mentioned. I am using the Daniels' Running Formula. One thing he does (I don't know about Advanced Marathoning) is provides appropriate pace for all workouts based upon your current condition, from a recent race. So it is not a question of I need to run X to run Y, but I am in shape to run X so that's the pace I'll run. As your fitness improves, the paces drop.

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"You know how to run, don't you? You just put one foot in front of the other -- and go."

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wayfool

100 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

25. Jul 28, 2006 12:32 PM

in response to: conflan

Here's another post/blog that I found particularly helpful. Excellent explanations and analogies on complex physiological processes.

http://www.42-195.org/hadd/part1.htm[/URL" target="_blank">

Does anyone have any info on this Charles Hadd character? Does he still exist?

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