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54 Replies Last post: May 8, 2007 2:44 PM by donnyl Go to original post 1 2 3 4 Previous Next

donnyl

590 posts since
Nov 9, 2007

30. Apr 29, 2007 7:32 AM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

QUOTEOriginally posted by crunningman:
[B] Running so many does allow you to get away from the regular training cycles, but at the same time gives you confidence going into the next one. Regardless of time my goal always was to run the whole 26.2 without having to walk. That I was happy to accomplish in 10 out 12 marathons.

Wow, you actually didn't have to walk in 10 out of 12. Truly inspiring.

sue088

264 posts since
Aug 9, 1998

31. Apr 29, 2007 8:51 AM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by rbbmoose:
Yup - I totally agree with Uli, Johnny J etc.

As an older (47 today ) marathoner running mid 2:40s there is no way I feel that I can do more than 2 hard marathons a year... but I think I could run 2:55 to 3:00 every other weekend. Quality vs. Quantity.

Ray<HR>

I think so too. However........I imagine when you are training for your <2:40, aren't your MP runs getting quite long. Do you ever question if adding 4-5 miles of slow running at the end of one of these workouts would actually hurt?

I ran 22.3 miles this week (3 miles slow jog- MP pace for 16.3-3 mile jog) if I had continued another 3.9 miles at the "jog pace", I'd actually would have run a time that would be one of my top 50% marathons. Makes one wonder.....
However, I admit that I've run a marathon at less than 100% of my ability and I do remember that eventhough the first 22 miles felt just a bit harder than my usual long run, the last 4.2 did take more than physical effort to finish. But wouldn't completing a marathon give a person a mental boost? Would it had been advantageous for me to complete my MP in a race and walk away with confidence ?

I'm really questioning this as I do know some runners going as long as 2 hours at MP!! Someone at your pace add a 20 minute warm-up and 20 cool-down, you have a workout and a marathon complete. I know a woman that did 20 miles at MP on treadmill and when I questioned her why?? She said she didn't have anyone that was willing or able to maintain 6 minute pace, and she said it'd be too hard for her on her own. So why wouldn't an elite person like this just run a marathon? I was too much in shock to ask her that day. She did run a 2:37 the next day.

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

32. Apr 29, 2007 4:02 PM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

For me, honestly, I don't think it would make much difference.
Maybe I would cut a few minutes off of my time, but given that
two years ago, I would use up every shred of what I had to eke
out a 4 hr marathon, and now 3:15 or so is enjoyable and I
still improve from race to race, it's hard to convince myself
to do something differently. I weigh 170 at 5' 9" so it's not
as if I have an optimal running physique anyway. Marathons
do make great speedwork for ultras in either case and they make nice
tempo runs for other marathons. I look at it this way - since I
don't do any speedwork or tempos at all and I run every training
run at a very easy pace, my marathons are not much more than
one or two of a typical runner's training runs.

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
MyStuff[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ[/URL" target="_blank">
My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

runninlaw

989 posts since
Mar 13, 2006

33. Apr 29, 2007 4:26 PM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by leitnerj:
I look at it this way - since I
don't do any speedwork or tempos at all and I run every training
run at a very easy pace, my marathons are not much more than
one or two of a typical runner's training runs.

<HR>

LOL. I would hardly call what you do "typical runner" training. Most people would balk at the idea of a 26.2 mile "tempo run!"

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

34. Apr 29, 2007 4:57 PM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by runninlaw:
LOL. I would hardly call what you do "typical runner" training. Most people would balk at the idea of a 26.2 mile "tempo run!"

<HR>

Perhaps, but there are many here who will run a 20 mile run with
a significant part at race pace, plus several miles of intervals
at the track, then maybe a tempo run, and then probably a couple
of other runs in the week at some kind of a tiring pace. I do no training
runs whatsoever at a tiring pace!

------------------
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mainers

341 posts since
Apr 4, 2006

35. Apr 29, 2007 10:26 PM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

"I do no training runs whatsoever at a tiring pace!"

more inspiring stuff

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

36. Apr 30, 2007 5:38 AM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by mainers:
"I do no training runs whatsoever at a tiring pace!"

more inspiring stuff<HR>

And I do realize it arouses a few chuckles here in
mainstream racing!

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obsessor

488 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

37. Apr 30, 2007 10:35 AM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by sue:
... I know a woman that did 20 miles at MP on treadmill and when I questioned her why?? She said she didn't have anyone that was willing or able to maintain 6 minute pace, and she said it'd be too hard for her on her own. So why wouldn't an elite person like this just run a marathon? I was too much in shock to ask her that day. She did run a 2:37 the next day.

<HR>

the next DAY???

sue088

264 posts since
Aug 9, 1998

38. Apr 30, 2007 1:57 PM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by obsessor:
the next DAY???

<HR>

oops! a time reference problem

. By next day, I meant that I was talking with her the day before her race. But I find her to be a little unreal in some of her endeavors in many facets of life and I have to question many things that she has done in her life

runninlaw

989 posts since
Mar 13, 2006

39. May 4, 2007 6:39 PM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

Can anybody tell me roughly what Pfitz suggests for a schedule for 6 weeks between marathons? I lent my Advanced Marathoning out to a friend who is now out of town?

I am still on the fence about doing this, but I know I want to do a long run this weekend.....

I appreciate any help.

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

40. May 4, 2007 8:55 PM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by runninlaw:
Can anybody tell me roughly what Pfitz suggests for a schedule for 6 weeks between marathons? I lent my Advanced Marathoning out to a friend who is now out of town?

I am still on the fence about doing this, but I know I want to do a long run this weekend.....

I appreciate any help.<HR>

Not a whole lot. The meat of his statement on 6 weeks is
that the key workouts during those weeks are the tune-up race
with 15 days to go, the long run with 14 days to go, the vo2max
sessions with 19 and 23 days to go, and the medium-long runs
with 18 and 21 days until the marathon.

Honestly, I don't think you need to get all that complicated. If
you're truly prepared to run 2 marathons well in a 6 week period,
then just recover for a few days after your first and resume your
training mileage. The number one thing is to maintain your
aerobic fitness, which is the first thing to go if you take a
substantive break, and the longest thing to regain. Unless you're
out for the Olympic qualifiers or something, I think you can
ditch the vo2max workouts and if you want to do anything
intense at all, just do one or two tempo runs. If you're not
prepared to run 2 solid marathons in 6 weeks, then your body
will be happy to tell you that after the first marathon.

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
MyStuff[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ[/URL" target="_blank">
My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

runninlaw

989 posts since
Mar 13, 2006

41. May 4, 2007 9:04 PM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

Thanks Jesse. That is very helpful. I should be able to get my book back Monday - my main question was the long run. I figured he'd reverse taper so I was up for a 20 miler this weekend.

As I mentioned, I am still not really sure what I am going to do. I did a 9 miler on Thursday and it felt great. I'm not sure if I should try a 20, but I figure I will go by feel. I actually am planning a couple of races in the next couple of weeks - more for fun than anything, but I know I will race them.

I actually hit the bike for the first time in eons today too (read: since 8th grade!). I should qualify it too, because I was on a beach cruiser with my 4 year old behind me on a tag-a-long, so it was a SLOW ride. But fun to log in a workout on the bike. B/w the crappy bike and the extra child weight, it was pure spinning for 12 miles - no rest. I am considering sprint tris this summer if I can figure out how to swim somewhat decently.

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

42. May 4, 2007 9:17 PM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by runninlaw:
Thanks Jesse. That is very helpful. I should be able to get my book back Monday - my main question was the long run. I figured he'd reverse taper so I was up for a 20 miler this weekend.

As I mentioned, I am still not really sure what I am going to do. I did a 9 miler on Thursday and it felt great. I'm not sure if I should try a 20, but I figure I will go by feel. I actually am planning a couple of races in the next couple of weeks - more for fun than anything, but I know I will race them.

I actually hit the bike for the first time in eons today too (read: since 8th grade!). I should qualify it too, because I was on a beach cruiser with my 4 year old behind me on a tag-a-long, so it was a SLOW ride. But fun to log in a workout on the bike. B/w the crappy bike and the extra child weight, it was pure spinning for 12 miles - no rest. I am considering sprint tris this summer if I can figure out how to swim somewhat decently. <HR>

Sounds good. And, of course you know what I would say - if you're
feeling good and up for 20, then do 20 - just don't do it hard. If you
get really fatigued half-way through, then cut it off and call it a day.
Whether you're focusing on speed work or endurance, it's a fine line
between optimally training to your fullest capacity and running yourself
into the ground. You just have to know how to stay on the right
side of that line.

Don't underestimate the value of towing a payload on an inefficient
bike ...

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
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My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

all4themarathon

63 posts since
Dec 18, 2003

43. May 5, 2007 1:14 AM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by leitnerj:
If you're truly prepared to run 2 marathons well in a 6 week period, then just recover for a few days after your first and resume your training mileage. The number one thing is to maintain your
aerobic fitness, which is the first thing to go if you take a
substantive break, and the longest thing to regain. <HR>

I often wonder about that...whether too much time off will erode aerobic fitness.
I train usually 50 miles per week and have been running for 6 years. The original point of this post involved how to recover from a span of 4 marathons over 7 months and give myself the best chance to run strong at Grandmas in 6 weeks. I usually run only 4 marathons per year, so I'm concerned about being ready and strong for Grandmas.
Dating back to last September, I've run very strong marathons (for me) except Boston 07 was a little disappointing. I semi-crashed at 17 and had to shuffle home to a 3:27, whereas I've been racing around 3:11-3:14.
So, following the advice of some friends, I took extra time off after Boston - 12 days off, with no running at all. Since then, I've put in easy runs of 1 hour duration each day....and I'm a little discouraged because I've felt sluggish and slow. Finally, just today did I feel stronger on the run, although the pace was still slower than normal.
So - is the cumulative fatigue over 7 months making me tired, or did the 12 days off erode some conditioning? (I realize nobody will know the answer). Also, was it a mistake to take 12 days off...hoping for a thorough rest and recovery before taking on Grandmas?
This is uncharted waters for me...never taken this much time off before. It actually felt nice during the break...and hope I can get it back together before too long. Should I now jump fully back into the full, demanding training cycle?
thanks everyone.
JGD

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

44. May 5, 2007 9:52 AM

in response to: all4themarathon

Re: how much marathoning is too much?...while still running competitively?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by all4themarathon:

So - is the cumulative fatigue over 7 months making me tired, or did the 12 days off erode some conditioning? (I realize nobody will know the answer). Also, was it a mistake to take 12 days off...hoping for a thorough rest and recovery before taking on Grandmas?
This is uncharted waters for me...never taken this much time off before. It actually felt nice during the break...and hope I can get it back together before too long. Should I now jump fully back into the full, demanding training cycle?

<HR>

The body sends mixed signals, so when you listen to it, you don't
always here what it's saying. If your body needed 12 days rest,
it needed it. There's nothing you can do about that. And at this point,
second-guessing does no good. I'll suggest the same to you that I
suggested above. Focus for the next few weeks on rebuilding your
endurance. Get a couple of very easy long runs in.
You won't lose any of the speed you had - you just need
to get yourself back to where you're comfortable pushing yourself
for the full 26.2+x (good luck running right on the measurement
line of any course). If you go with your slower pace while you
briefly rebuild, you should be able to get yourself back to where you
were. For someone with a solid running base as you had, 12 days
off should have been more than enough to flush out most cumulative
fatigue, so right now you're most likely dealing with lack of conditioning
from the time off. But from only 12 days, you should be able to
recover most, if not all, by race day. If you're really concerned about
remember what MRP feels like, take a couple of runs where you
squeeze in 3 or 4 miles at MRP between now and the race. It will
feel hard, but it's all you'll really need.

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
MyStuff[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ[/URL" target="_blank">
My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

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