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6255 Views 27 Replies Latest reply: Mar 7, 2010 6:29 PM by cmon2 RSS Go to original post 1 2 Previous Next
  • jokerGD Amateur 13 posts since
    Mar 3, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    15. Mar 4, 2010 12:26 PM (in response to lenzlaw)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    lenzlaw,

     

    Hello there.  You're famous on this board

     

    I'd say these are more scientific studies, than 'articles'

     

    and yes, not everyone will have a 2" heel padding, I am sure mileage will vary

     

    I have read the study many times and aware of this point they make (which you bolded), that they are not trying to say people should switch shoes, nor have I.

    I was just simply posting it to show some scientific research from what I believe to be a trustworthy/neutral source, ie, not an online blog/sport article/letter from a ceo of a shoe company

     

    as far as, naturally landing even-- some of their studies included going to african countries where people have naturally ran their whole lives barefoot, and video taping them, seems that they naturally prefer forefoot and when the same runner put on modern running shoes, they ended up landing heel first

     

     

    the study also shows that the heel strike force, has a much higher "impact force" whereas the forefoot is a gradual up/down, with both resulting in the same 3x body weight peak

     

    you mention:

    It is most interesting in all this to note that most runners seem to be heel strikers

     

    I am curious how you've come up with this fact, is it just from observation during your runs?

     

     

    I am surprised that you were able to barefoot heel strike, I am an amateur runner myself (6 months) and if I try heel strike barefoot, it hurts like hell (tho I do wear vibrams and not actually barefoot, but i think its more-less the same)

  • lenzlaw Community Moderator 10,324 posts since
    Jan 18, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    16. Mar 4, 2010 1:46 PM (in response to jokerGD)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    jokerGD,

     

    Hmm . . . "articles" describing the results of the study.  They are actually considered articles, and I guess I'm just used to referring to them as such.  They're certainly not articles as you find in a popular magazine or newspaper.

     

    See, the 2" heel padding comment is the kind of hyperbole that puts people off.  You won't find a serious running shoe with anything close to a 2" heel.  Which was my point.  If you're going to make statements, make them as factual as possible.  If opinion, phrase them that way.  The shoes I measured are Asics Gel Cumulus 10, a pretty typical cushioned shoe.  And not measured at a noticable wear point.  I've had some of the same thoughts about thick heels.  But when I actually measure it and find only about a quarter inch rise from ball of foot to heel . . . well that's just not very much.  Kinda takes away the argument.  I'm a little disappointed in that myself.

     

    You may note my careful use of "seem to be" in my comment about heel strikers.  Not stated as fact, based on my observation and the only study I have seen (cited in my previous post).

     

    At any rate, my problem with this whole discussion is that the barefoot/minimalist crowd are too defensive, shouting bold, basically unsupported statements from the rooftops, as it were.  You and the authors both say they did studies of barefoot runners, but I still don't see them cited anywhere.  I think if you discuss the issues in a more rational manner, you'll find more people listening.  I know if you say "This is what worked for me.  And this is why I think it worked.", I will give it a lot more consideration.

     

    Len





    Len

  • jokerGD Amateur 13 posts since
    Mar 3, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    17. Mar 4, 2010 2:07 PM (in response to lenzlaw)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    well, as far as some studies of barefoot runners, if you actually go through the whole harvard study, you would see them

     

    there are many slow motion captures and analisys of barefoot runners-- on treadmills and off

     

    here's the kenyan i was referring to

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgkWhcapWLU

     

    someone who ran their whole life barefoot, and its amazing how far he kicks his foot back

    i tried to run using that technique-- kicking my foot almost all the way to my butt, and I started flying extremely fast, but could not maintain the pace for long

    i really felt gravity taking over and propelling me forward

    but I need to get my stamina up

     

    anyway, I think you are generalizing me into this "crowd" you speak of, even tho i have not made any attacks or shouting at anyone, and did not even suggest that someone else runs in minimalist, instead I got attacked for mentioning it

     

    i am all for people doing what works for them, and have not tried to change anyone's mind

     

     

    I think most people on this board will take those statements [you make] as facts, I did, since they are coming from you, a moderator + most active person

  • gatorman10 Legend 242 posts since
    Apr 23, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    18. Mar 5, 2010 10:15 AM (in response to jokerGD)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    What did Len say that wasn't factual?  Can we just agree that there MAY be some benefit to running barefoot.  There may not.  Back in the day I believe RJ Reynolds did studies that "proved" smoking had no ill health effects.  I know how to read and can interpret "studies" and draw my own conclusions.  At this point my conclusion is that I will keep doing what works for me.

     

    Good luck on your crusade and trashing Len on this board won't help with that.

     

    Dad always had some good advice - "Don't be the first or the last person on a bandwagon"  This bandwagon has barely left the station.  Again I ask you:  If this is so great and reduces injuries, turns you into a more natural and therefore faster runner why don't ANY elites race in minimalist shoes?  I bet Meb could get $10,000,000 to run boston in Vibrams....

  • jokerGD Amateur 13 posts since
    Mar 3, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    19. Mar 5, 2010 10:39 AM (in response to gatorman10)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    hey gator, hope you've had your run today?

     

    If you say I have trashed Len, can you please show me where I have done this?  quotes are appreciated

    Can you please show me this crusade that I am supposedly on??

     

    this is the statement he made which is non-factual, and misleading

     

    It is most interesting in all this to note that most runners seem to be heel strikers

     

     

    It is not clearly indicated as a personal observational opinion, and in my opinion presented as a fact to prove a particular point, again, especially due to the fact he is a moderator/most active around here

     

    please show me again, where I have tried to convince you to switch to running minimalist/barefoot which apparently warrant your attacks on me

     

     

    the only thing that was said by "you", is that there is no science what-so-ever to backup that running minimalist is less injury causing, and I provided a recent scientific study from a credible source-- not a blog, not someone's observational opinion, not a sports magazine or the ceo of a shoe company-- that does show that people in underdeveloped countries who dont have access to shoes, seem to run barefoot and land forefoot

     

     

    it seems to me you have dealt with some minimalist zealots in the past, and you just want to trash everyone else that even mentions anything related to it, which is unfortunate and not very open minded

     

    If this is so great and reduces injuries, turns you into a more natural and therefore faster runner why don't ANY elites race in minimalist shoes?

    you're making a lot of blind conclusions there, I do feel it's great and reduces injuries, but I don't know where you pulled the rest out of?

    you keep bringing up some kind of argument about elite runners being the meter stick for the rest of the world, as if you are trying to imitate them, or use them as a standard for what you should do-- yet at the same time keep saying that we should do what works for us as individuals-- contradicting yourself?

     

    and someone running marathons for 10,000,000 I honestly don't even know what you're trying to argue there..

     

    besides that, I feel bad that you hijacked the original post with this assault on me

  • gatorman10 Legend 242 posts since
    Apr 23, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    20. Mar 5, 2010 1:07 PM (in response to jokerGD)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

      I believe Len was pointing to the study we both gave a link to the the author showed about 75% of the runners were heel strikers?.  I had my run today, thanks.  I don't think the study was an opinion......  Of course I want to do what works for me AND be FAST like a Kenyan to boot.  I am tired of going round and round on this.  I can find a "study" to "prove" anything.

     

    Only a moron would not take it that you are trying to convince others that barefoot is the way to go.  Why else would you post the studies you have?  Have a great day this horse is dead.  I hijacked the original post?  It was about stride length, not foot strike dude.

  • jokerGD Amateur 13 posts since
    Mar 3, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    21. Mar 5, 2010 2:34 PM (in response to gatorman10)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    It's quite clear that since you can not respond to anything I've said, all you can do is attack and insult.

    Notice that I haven't used great analogies like "only a moron", to backup my opinion on a topic. (still no quotes)

    How can anyone argue with logic solid as that?

     

     

    Also, the original post is not about stride length, but in fact about "efficient running stride", dude.

  • gatorman10 Legend 242 posts since
    Apr 23, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    22. Mar 5, 2010 4:42 PM (in response to jokerGD)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    We have a troll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

  • jenster! Legend 295 posts since
    May 27, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    23. Mar 5, 2010 7:27 PM (in response to jokerGD)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    Wow...it's definitely hot in this thread!!!

    jokerGD wrote:

     

    this is the statement he made which is non-factual, and misleading

     

    It is most interesting in all this to note that most runners seem to be heel strikers

     

     

    It is not clearly indicated as a personal observational opinion, and in my opinion presented as a fact to prove a particular point, again, especially due to the fact he is a moderator/most active around here

     


    I read Len's statement as personal observation and I think it's crystal clear that's how he meant it. The word seem is subjective, which is why he said later he chose it on purpose. It implies that's his point of view - that's how it seems to him. If he had said, "It is most interesting in all this to note that most runners are heel strikers," then I would agree with you. Reading all of Len's posts on this thread, the only point he's trying to prove is there's not enough research for him to form a solid opinion either way and he's going to keep doing what works for him.

     

    The study you posted also uses a lot of subjective language in its conclusion, which tells me there's a lot of good data presented but that the analysis is pure opinion (an educated opinion, but still an opinion). Phrases and words like "it is likely" and "we suspect" and "probably" dont give me a lot of confidence that the study was anything more than research supporting an educated guess.  Re-read the conclusion - just like you read Len's opinion to be fact, I think you're reading the researcher's opinion as a fact too:

    For millions of years, it is likely that runners landed with no            single, specific foot strike, and rather landed with a variety of foot            strikes including forefoot, midfoot and heel strikes, but we suspect            that the most common form of foot strike was a forefoot strike. Midfoot strikes were probably also more common than they are today. These         kinds of strikes (i.e. landing first on the lateral ball of the foot) lead to            lower impact forces which may lead to lower rates of injury. We         hypothesize and there is anecdotal evidence that forefoot or midfoot            striking can help avoid and/or mitigate repetitive stress injuries,         especially stress fractures, plantar fasciitis, and runner's knee. We emphasize, however, that this hypothesis on injury has yet to be tested         and that there have been no direct studies on the efficacy of forefoot         strike running or barefoot running on injury.

     

    That being said, I'm definitely interested in barefoot running or being a minimalist shoe. I'm a neutral runner and dont like a lot of padding in my shoes anyway so the conclusions seem logical. To be cliché, we are all an experiment of one so if it works for you, awesome...but if it doesnt work for me I'm not going to listen to any study that tells me otherwise. The important thing is that we keep running happy and not injured. I dont care how anyone achieves that goal.





    “Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think."

    -Christopher Robin to Winnie the Pooh (A.A. Milne)

    .

    My Blog  |  Althlinks Profile

    Fall Schedule:

    9/17 Asheville Half

    10/16 Nike Women's Marathon

    11/20 Philly Marathon


  • jokerGD Amateur 13 posts since
    Mar 3, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    24. Mar 5, 2010 7:56 PM (in response to jenster!)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    hey jenster

     

     

    thanks for some objective input here, and again all I can say is I haven't tried to force anything upon anyone, certainly nothing that warrants the personal insults and attack on me by gator, without any reasoning

     

     

     

    I agree that the scientific study is very clear to make sure people understand that it is in fact only a hypothesis, and more study is required

     

    and I have not attempted to use it as some kind of silver bullet to prove that barefoot is way better, i am also for people doing what works for them

     

     

    from my personal experience, running minimalist has literally changed my life

     

    I could not run 10 feet in shoes with heel padding, without back pain, knee pain and hip pain

     

    when I tried minimalist running, i noticed that I could run a lot longer and further, without pain, my furthest run has so far been 11k, since I started 6 months ago

     

    it took some time to readjust, as my calves became the primary muscle used, i literally was limping for the first two months

     

    I actually call it jogging, because i dont feel that im running at full speed, and my average pace is 9:10/mile

     

    I came to make the vibram decision after I encountered the worst injury a male can think of, while bicycling (use your imagination), and had to find something to do to stay active, since I could not run in regular shoes, vibrams provided me an opportunity to keep an active lifestyle without pain and injury.  at this point I would never go back to cycling, after experiencing the benefits of running naturally

     

     

    I can also add that if you are a seasoned runner, it's not necessarily an `easy` transition into barefoot/minimalist, as it takes time for your muscles to "reawaken" and adjust to a new style of running.  this discourages a lot of people from what they feel is something too difficult to readjust, but personally I feel it's worth it, especially in the long run

     

     

    one thing I can point out about the study, that is not so much an opinion, is the transient force "spike" in the heel strike versions

    as you look at the pressure graph of the landing, you can see how the tension on the foot goes from 0 to a high spike, and then gradually comes down

    I think it's clear enough to conclude that there is a bigger shock force while heel landing, as opposed to forefoot landing.  Aside from that, I have personally tried to heel land while running minimalist, and I definitely felt that shock force as it felt like my heels were hammers hitting the ground .

    (please note, that I am in no way trying to convert you into a barefoot/minimalist runner and get you away from `running` shoes or what works for you, simply sharing my experience and what has worked for me)

  • ragingsamster Amateur 25 posts since
    Oct 20, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    25. Mar 5, 2010 9:23 PM (in response to Randy Kerperien)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    There is a very simple device for measuring stride efficiency - the energy it takes to complete a stride. Find a decent treadmill, take long strides, you will note your cadence is sounded by the treadmill's motor - you are using energy to change it's pitch with each stride. Now try using short strides. the pitch of the motor becomes uniform - meaning that the treadmill is not having to exert as much force. therefore and short stride causes the least resistance and is proven more efficient.





    Started exercising - 6/2009

    Started running - 9/2009

    First race - Kent Christmas rush finished 4th (from last!) in my age group 1:03:19 for 10K

    Longest run to date - 26 miles - Green River Marathon! June 5th 2010

    http://ragingsamster.blogspot.com/2010/06/gollum-runs-marathon.html

    My blog - http://www.runningintherain.net

  • jenster! Legend 295 posts since
    May 27, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    26. Mar 5, 2010 9:30 PM (in response to jokerGD)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    jokerGD wrote:

     

     

    one thing I can point out about the study, that is not so much an opinion, is the transient force "spike" in the heel strike versions

    as you look at the pressure graph of the landing, you can see how the tension on the foot goes from 0 to a high spike, and then gradually comes down

    I think it's clear enough to conclude that there is a bigger shock force while heel landing, as opposed to forefoot landing.

    That's still confusing the data with the analysis. It's definitely clear there's greater force...but what does that tell me other than there's greater force? I dont know how to apply that. At what point does a spike in transient force increase my risk for injury?

     

    Think about weight - it's proven that obese people have increased health risks. I know at what point based on Body Fat % I'm increaseing my risk for certain diseases. But say there were no Body Fat guidelines...and you told me a way to lose 5 lbs. You might say weighting less = better...just like less force = better. And it could be better for me to lose 5lb....but will 5lbs make that much of a difference when it will take 50 lbs to push me into the risky area?





    “Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think."

    -Christopher Robin to Winnie the Pooh (A.A. Milne)

    .

    My Blog  |  Althlinks Profile

    Fall Schedule:

    9/17 Asheville Half

    10/16 Nike Women's Marathon

    11/20 Philly Marathon


  • cmon2 Amateur 20 posts since
    Feb 26, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    27. Mar 7, 2010 6:29 PM (in response to jenster!)
    Re: Most efficient running stride??

    ah as for force when landing on the heel - I have 2 pairs of running shoes, one of these would have me heel strike with much force but I only noticed this when my achilles tendon made me aware of this fact.

    however, I'm actually able to change my landing style in these shoes if I pay attention so I land more midfoot and much more smoothly and then my achilles will be happy again. it just takes a bit of attention which I don't feel like doing right now so I've put the shoes away but I might get them out later and experiment again.

     

    so to answer the question as to how much force it is that increases the injury risk - I suppose it depends on the person. perhaps if I had stronger achilles tendons, they wouldn't really mind. I actually don't know how strong they are i.e. another person with the same running style that caused me problems may withstand it OK.

     

    as for barefoot running or running in minimalist shoes - I haven't tried any of that but I have to say that when I go around in the house bare foot it feels much better than the usual way! this is one reason why one day I may try out such shoes but not right now as it would be too many things to concentrate on at once.

     

    as for this thread, I just do not understand why all the attacking. I think all the opinions here are very interesting to read and gives one a lot of food for thought

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