interval training at the cost of long ...

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40 Replies Last post: Jun 6, 2007 11:07 AM by exciton Go to original post 1 2 3 Previous Next

mrinertia

1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

15. Dec 20, 2007 10:17 PM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by JimR:
My thoughts:

5-7 miles 'recovery' runs, too long for your recovery runs at your pace. Keep these within 40 minutes.

Tuesday, if you find the tempo portion too demanding or you're running that tempo pace too slow, reduce the tempo portion to 3-4 miles, the rest of it is warmup/cooldown.

Friday, limit to 5 miles.

toss some strides into the thursday run, it'll help with leg speed.

edit: for tempo pace, refer to McMillan's calculator[/URL" target="_blank">, it looks like you should do it somewhere between 8:30ish and 9:00 minute pace if you're targetting a 52 minute 10k.

http://This message has been edited by JimR (edited May-08-2007).<HR>

This is getting frustrating. In an earlier post, Tchuck used the term "low mielage" when describing my training. Now I'm being asked to cut back even further. I guess I'm in a dangerous area with a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. I've been running for a year now with the "more is better" philosophy and remain uninjured. The first time I ran I could only do 1/2 mile and then walked home. I've done 2 HMs so far. I enjoy running for the sake of running, but would like to be able to run fast over great distances. On any given training run, I don't race, but I do run hard. It is difficult for me to see how easing up is going to help me reach my goal. Could you point me toward any books or articles that give information on the physiology and physics that support your advice? I'm fairly analytical and if I could see some of the science behind the philosophy that easing up will help me get faster, it would put my mind at ease. Thanks.

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42

JimR022

1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002

16. Dec 20, 2007 10:17 PM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by mrinertia:
This is getting frustrating. In an earlier post, Tchuck used the term "low mielage" when describing my training
<HR>

I'm just pointing out that you should probably keep those two recovery runs reasonably short. Keep your recovery run pace slow, and don't go too far. If you do, say a 10 minute pace for recovery run, 7 miles is 70 minutes and I think that's too far/long for a recovery run.

http://This message has been edited by JimR (edited May-08-2007).

thereshegoes

332 posts since
Jun 15, 2006

17. May 8, 2007 10:19 AM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

mrinertia, you are not alone. I think everyone scratches their head about this at the beginning and then a few months later can't believe they ever ran so hard every day when now they run easy most days and are improving at a fast rate!

Anyway, here's my advice, fwiw:

Go over and start reading the "truth about mileage" thread in the basic training forum. That's a good start.

Then order a Jack Daniels book on amazon. He does a wonderful job explaining the basic physiology of training. Caveat: his training plans are generally considered aggressive, so I wouldn't necessarily go out and use one of his training plans just yet. Read his book to understand the basic principles--no matter who designed your training plan, the principles are generally the same. The difference in most training plans is in the pace to use for different types of runs and perhaps the distance or duration of those runs.

After reading Daniels I would go read about some other approaches to training (Pfitzinger, Higgons, even Galloway--they're all popular and easy to get info on). Think about all the info and then decide what approach you want to take.

mrinertia

1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

18. May 8, 2007 10:56 AM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by thereshegoes:
mrinertia, you are not alone. I think everyone scratches their head about this at the beginning and then a few months later can't believe they ever ran so hard every day when now they run easy most days and are improving at a fast rate!

Anyway, here's my advice, fwiw:

Go over and start reading the "truth about mileage" thread in the basic training forum. That's a good start.

Then order a Jack Daniels book on amazon. He does a wonderful job explaining the basic physiology of training. Caveat: his training plans are generally considered aggressive, so I wouldn't necessarily go out and use one of his training plans just yet. Read his book to understand the basic principles--no matter who designed your training plan, the principles are generally the same. The difference in most training plans is in the pace to use for different types of runs and perhaps the distance or duration of those runs.

After reading Daniels I would go read about some other approaches to training (Pfitzinger, Higgons, even Galloway--they're all popular and easy to get info on). Think about all the info and then decide what approach you want to take. <HR>

Will do, thanks. Looks like a trip to Borders is in order this weekend. I'm thinking June 8th may be a bit too soon to expect a PR for a 10k, then. Ah well, it'll be a good opportunity to ***** my progress.

Tchuck

554 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

19. May 8, 2007 9:45 PM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

I certainly agree that on your miles that more than 45 minutes is not a recovery run. BUT, if you take the day off after your long run, you may not need the recovery run or recovery pace. Listen to your body. A far as tempo paces. Generally, faster tempo (3 miles or 3-4 X 1 mile) is around 30 sec. slower than current 5K pace. And a slower Tinman tempo (4-6 miles) would be more like 50-60 seconds slower than 5K race pace but for longer distance.

Here is my suggestion for what it's worth

Saturday: 12 mile long run comfortable w/ last 2-3 at a faster pace if feeling good and 4-8 striders
Sunday: off
Monday 5 miles comfortable
Tuesday: 8-10 mile with 3-5 miles at tempo pace.
One week do a faster tempo pace of 3 miles and the other week do 4-5 miles at a bit slower tempo pace. Can't give paces until you run a 5K race or 10K to assess your current level of fitness
Wednesday: off or 2 - 3 miles slow
Thursday: 7 miles comfortable with 4 working up to 8 quick 100M striders
Friday: 4 - 7 miles comfortable

------------------
Todd[/URL" target="_blank">

Lofcaudio

66 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

20. May 9, 2007 3:34 PM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by thereshegoes:
Then order a Jack Daniels book on amazon. He does a wonderful job explaining the basic physiology of training. Caveat: his training plans are generally considered aggressive, so I wouldn't necessarily go out and use one of his training plans just yet.<HR>

Daniels' Running Formula...great reading and has some outstanding schedules for all distances. I disagree though with calling his plans "aggressive." He allows you to pick your mileage (which you should do based upon what you know that you can handle). He then recommends quality workouts based upon your weekly mileage and VDOT pace. If you are sure that you can handle 40 miles per week, then he will recommend two "quality" workouts, with quality running being a percentage of 40 miles.

If I were you, and I were going to be running 40 miles in a week, my schedule would look something like this:

M: Quality: 6 x 800m at I pace (after 2-3 miles of warm-up)
T: 3.5 miles recovery
W: 8 miles easy
Th: Quality: 6 x 1200m at T pace (after 2-3 mile of warm-up)
F: 3.5 miles recovery
S: 12 miles easy
Sun: OFF

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My Running Log[/URL" target="_blank">

Me...Running[/URL" target="_blank">

SimonR

125 posts since
May 9, 2007

21. May 9, 2007 4:22 PM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

I have only been running 7 months, and less weekly mileage, about 18-25 currently. I have found success by doing an easy 3-4 mile run, a tempo or interval run of 5 miles, another short easy run, then a 10 miler or 8 miles with hills at a good pace for my long run.
like you, I find it difficult to slow down, but feel that with limited miles I should try to do harder runs than someone running further. (Quite often I do only 3 runs in a week, for the lower total.)

Being 56 I find it takes me a bit longer than some to recover after a longer or faster run. I ran the Toronto Sporting Life 10k on Sunday in 51:50, but it is flat or slightly downhill all the way so perhaps adding 2 minutes would give a fair comparison.

My point is that I think what works best for each of us may be an individual thing, I do think more mileage would make me faster, and am planning to gradually increase with the goal of running a half marathon this fall.

JimR022

1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002

22. May 9, 2007 5:17 PM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tchuck:
I certainly agree that on your miles that more than 45 minutes is not a recovery run. BUT, if you take the day off after your long run, you may not need the recovery run or recovery pace.<HR>

Yeah, she's got that gray-zone thing going with a day off followed by her sorta recovery run. I'm looking at it from the perspective of what she has coming the following day as opposed to what she did the day before.

mrinertia

1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

23. May 10, 2007 9:00 AM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tchuck:
I certainly agree that on your miles that more than 45 minutes is not a recovery run. BUT, if you take the day off after your long run, you may not need the recovery run or recovery pace. Listen to your body. A far as tempo paces. Generally, faster tempo (3 miles or 3-4 X 1 mile) is around 30 sec. slower than current 5K pace. And a slower Tinman tempo (4-6 miles) would be more like 50-60 seconds slower than 5K race pace but for longer distance.

Here is my suggestion for what it's worth

Saturday: 12 mile long run comfortable w/ last 2-3 at a faster pace if feeling good and 4-8 striders
Sunday: off
Monday 5 miles comfortable
Tuesday: 8-10 mile with 3-5 miles at tempo pace.
One week do a faster tempo pace of 3 miles and the other week do 4-5 miles at a bit slower tempo pace. Can't give paces until you run a 5K race or 10K to assess your current level of fitness
Wednesday: off or 2 - 3 miles slow
Thursday: 7 miles comfortable with 4 working up to 8 quick 100M striders
Friday: 4 - 7 miles comfortable

Ok, I haven't raced in a while and I've certainly improved since my last one. I'm not a fan of 5ks, but I think I'll get one in within the next week or two in order to see what my 5k pace is.

<HR>

Tchuck

554 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

24. May 10, 2007 9:29 AM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

Just remember not to fly out too hard when you do your 5K race. It is a mistake most of us make when we haven't raced in a while. You still will but I am warning you.

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Todd[/URL" target="_blank">

mrinertia

1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

25. May 10, 2007 9:42 AM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tchuck:
Just remember not to fly out too hard when you do your 5K race. It is a mistake most of us make when we haven't raced in a while. You still will but I am warning you.

<HR>

I like 10k, 10 mile and HMs a LOT. I'm used to starting out conservatively and finishing strong. Thanks for the heads up nonetheless.

superburtm

140 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

26. May 29, 2007 3:12 AM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

running slow= slow running

runfastcoach

122 posts since
Jan 25, 2006

27. May 29, 2007 5:34 AM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

At your performance level, doing 1 long run and 1 interval or tempo run per week is perfectly sensible. Any more than that is asking for injuries, burnout, and staleness.

Give your body time to adjust. Be patient. More is fine, but not necessarily better. Often, the more is better philosophy is synonymous with impatience. Most runners who've had injuries will tell you there problem was rushing the process - doing too much, too soon, too fast.

Remember this basic observation: Just because you can do something doesn't mean it is good for you. And just because something is good for you in a small amount doesn't mean it's good for you in a bigger amount.

Good luck!

Tinman
runfastcoach@gmail.com

mrinertia

1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

28. May 29, 2007 8:45 AM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

Thanks for your input everybody. Right now I am ocusing almost exclusively on increasing my MPW and have already started reaping the rewards. While some runs are a bit faster than others, I haven't even really been doing specific tempo runs. I think the best thing I can do to get faster right now is run more miles. When the benefits I get from racking up higher mileage plateaus, I'll turn to speedwork.

aharmer

460 posts since
May 25, 2005

29. May 29, 2007 12:38 PM

in response to: mrinertia

Re: interval training at the cost of long runs?

mrinertia,

Have you ever done any running with a heart rate monitor (HRM)? If you're analytical you might really enjoy it. I'm extremely analytical and it makes my running much more enjoyable. My entire program is based on HR percentages and not paces. There's one way to know for sure if your different runs are being done at the correct intensity. Strap on a monitor and find out. My blog discusses the topic, you could buy a book by Parker called "HR Training for the Compleat Idiot", or find one of many threads on the board here if you're interested. For the analytical mind it might be just what you're looking for. If you're interested I'd be happy to help get you started.

------------------
My Profile[/URL" target="_blank">

"Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
http://www.hrmarathontraining.blogspot.com/

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