based on my training - sub 17 5k attainable?

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phillytom

49 posts since
Apr 6, 2006

30. Sep 14, 2007 12:55 PM

in response to: Biophilia

Bio:

I think you are close. Those are times I would run, albeit probably for an 8x. You will see in 2 weeks

If you crash and burn in mile 3, then I would suspect your base because you have the speed for it. Fortunately, base isn't hard to buid, just takes time.

Good luck. Let us know how it tunrs out.

Biophilia

171 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

31. Sep 20, 2007 10:51 AM

in response to: Biophilia

just to build suspense I'll post my workout (from today) again leading up to the race on the 30th where I'll try to pr.

4x800 with 2min off (same as before)

1:15
2:33

1:15
2:32

1:15
2:32

1:13
2:28

better times, I'm still not confident that I can go under 17. I have no clue what I'll do. I had a real good 11.5 mile run 2 days ago at a steady 7min pace too.

I'm planning one more speed workout next tuesday before the race on sunday. I don't know what I should do.

Biophilia

171 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

32. Sep 25, 2007 10:16 AM

in response to: Biophilia

I don't think it's gunna happen. Did a 3xmile with 5min rest at 17 minute 5k pace today and it was rough.

5:39
5:25
5:28

a 17 minute 5k is 5:28 pace so that's what I tried for. There was no way I could have kept up that pace for 3 consecutive miles, and with hills.

fredurie

1,979 posts since
Aug 21, 2002

33. Sep 25, 2007 11:11 AM

in response to: Biophilia

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Biophilia:
I don't think it's gunna happen. Did a 3xmile with 5min rest at 17 minute 5k pace today and it was rough.

5:39
5:25
5:28

a 17 minute 5k is 5:28 pace so that's what I tried for. There was no way I could have kept up that pace for 3 consecutive miles, and with hills. <HR>

Yes, but some days you are dragging, and other days you float along.

If you say to yourself that it isn't going to happen, then it isn't.

See what happens in the 1st mile on race day, and run the way you feel.

fredurie

1,979 posts since
Aug 21, 2002

34. Sep 25, 2007 11:22 AM

in response to: Biophilia

Behind every behavior is a positive intention.

There is no such thing as failure. There is only feedback.

N.L.P.

exciton

317 posts since
Nov 2, 2004

35. Sep 25, 2007 11:52 AM

in response to: Biophilia

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Biophilia:
I don't think it's gunna happen. Did a 3xmile with 5min rest at 17 minute 5k pace today and it was rough.

5:39
5:25
5:28

a 17 minute 5k is 5:28 pace so that's what I tried for. There was no way I could have kept up that pace for 3 consecutive miles, and with hills. <HR>

Whoah!! Don't bring negative thoughts in. This is exactly the wrong time for that. Things are different in training than they are on race day.

On race day, you are just plain faster. It's some kind of response to the social setting of the race that plays out in the physiology of running. Or something.

I want you to banish that negative sentiment completely. Now visualize the race and the execution of your plan.

And remember during the race how illusory pain is. You truly do not know what you can run through.

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Biophilia

171 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

36. Sep 25, 2007 12:20 PM

in response to: Biophilia

ya you guys are right. Mentality can make a big difference. And I'll taper for 2-3 days so that should help. But all things considered, that workout didn't seem to be a good indicator. I'll still go for it though, I'm not convinced it's impossible. I just need a really good day

MRCT

129 posts since
Feb 8, 2006

37. Sep 25, 2007 2:23 PM

in response to: Biophilia

You can do it. Don't be discouraged by the track workout. By the time you are really starting to hurt, you will be in the third mile and close to the finish. In January, I ran a 3.05 race at 5:33 pace, with a big uphill in the last mile. Never in my life had I run that fast. My previous best pace for a 5k was 5:40, but I felt good that day and kept pushing the whole way. Of course I have yet to duplicate that feat, but that's another story.

On race day, run like you're being chased and don't look back. Report back and let us know how it goes. I'm curious to see how you do. I have that same workout scheduled for next week. It's going to be a challenge.

exciton

317 posts since
Nov 2, 2004

38. Sep 25, 2007 3:02 PM

in response to: Biophilia

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Biophilia:
ya you guys are right. Mentality can make a big difference. And I'll taper for 2-3 days so that should help. But all things considered, that workout didn't seem to be a good indicator. I'll still go for it though, I'm not convinced it's impossible. I just need a really good day <HR>

One more comment and I'll leave you alone.

If I were going for a 5K PR, and I did 3 x 1 mile at that PR pace, I would find it to be a very difficult workout personally. I have been there many times before. 'How in the world can I string those three miles together?' The answer is: do it on race day. Race day is truly different. For the marathon, it's even more pronounced. If I were to do 13 x 1 mile at marathon pace, I would have the subjective feeling that I was working pretty friggin hard. So how in the world do I put 26.2 of them together? I do it on race day, when my heart is full of desire, and since I'm trained, I know I can rely on my fitness.

Stop hedging on your goal. You need to turn back around and say to yourself that you are going for a sub-17, and this is how you'll do it. Simply that. You have the fitness and you have the splits in training.

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MarcusB092

39 posts since
Jul 28, 2007

39. Sep 25, 2007 8:44 PM

in response to: Biophilia

exciton

I disagree with you. Sure you can do a little better on race day. But you can't do triple what you were doing that was difficult all of a sudden because you think something is magical about race day. I am not saying you are wrong totally wrong. You can't put in triple effort if you are already going all out or almost all out.

bhearn

430 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

40. Sep 25, 2007 9:12 PM

in response to: Biophilia

Marcus, it's not triple effort. It's changing your pain threshold.

I always dread the 3x1600 at 5K pace (2 min recovery) workout scheduled a week and a half before the marathon in Pfitzinger's programs (coming up for me in 2 days... ugh). That is a **** hard workout. Admittedly, harder than with 5 min recovery. Still, every time I do it, I think, how can this possibly be? There's NO WAY I could run 5K at that pace. Yet by definition, I do.

Jim24315

1,974 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

41. Sep 25, 2007 9:53 PM

in response to: Biophilia

After reading all the evidence, I predict that sub-17 won't happen by the 30th. However, I'm sure that the ability to do so is there, and probably by quite a ways.

Rather than worry about all the mind over matter and being in such a big hurry, why not just train and see where it takes you? Even if that workout had been relatively comfortable it woudn't have proven much, imo, with those long rest breaks. I'd rather see more focus on mileage and threshold work for a while rather than these hard intervals with long rest breaks. My vote is for mileage, tempos, and slower intervals with shorter recovery jogs.

tuscaloosarunner

728 posts since
Apr 7, 2006

42. Sep 26, 2007 6:27 AM

in response to: Biophilia

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jim24315:
After reading all the evidence, I predict that sub-17 won't happen by the 30th. However, I'm sure that the ability to do so is there, and probably by quite a ways.

Rather than worry about all the mind over matter and being in such a big hurry, why not just train and see where it takes you? Even if that workout had been relatively comfortable it woudn't have proven much, imo, with those long rest breaks. I'd rather see more focus on mileage and threshold work for a while rather than these hard intervals with long rest breaks. My vote is for mileage, tempos, and slower intervals with shorter recovery jogs.<HR>

Jim is spot on here: mileage and tempo work.

I think if that 3x1600 is done correctly, that it is more like a time trial, but one that really would be beat you senseless and may leave you a little flat.

If you want to get a sense of your fitness, my good internet running pal, Abadabajev , suggested a one mile time trial about 4 days out from race day: it's a good sharpener and gives you a sense of where you're at (should be done submaximally: I ran 5:13 the week I broke 29 for a 5 mile race in hilly terrain).

That said, the best thing you can do on race day is race: look for people to stay with, be tactical, concentrate on effort and mental toughness. The time will be there or it won't, but if you micromanage the race according to each mile split, you'll tend to be a bit less relaxed than if you just raced your competition IMHO--at least, that's been my experience.

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Tuscaloosarunner[/URL" target="_blank">

phillytom

49 posts since
Apr 6, 2006

43. Sep 26, 2007 10:44 AM

in response to: Biophilia

3 (or I usually do 4) x 1m <5k pace is the hardest workout I do. Like exciton said, I have a very hard time stringing together those miles in a workout at PR pace with 50% rest. But I can do it in a race with 0% rest.

I agree that mileage over time will be a huge help and that biophila has the potential here to go a lot faster, but I don't think that you should give up the aggressive goals. 5k is an aggressive race and is as much about handling the pain as anything else.

I do lots of LT work, but I don't think it has a ton of use for 5k. For a 17m 5k, you would be doing, what 1x5m at 6mm pace? I think for the 5k that you really need to do more pace specific work. The gulf between 6mm and 5:28 is very big.

Jim - can you give an example of what you mean by slower intervals? I think for 5k training you should be shooting for 5k pace in your 1600s and 3k pace or faster in your 800s. I agree though that 50-75% rest is better prep for the 5k.

I don't really see where intervals slower than race pace do much for you in the 5k.

Again biophilia, I say go for it. Try tusca's sharpening mile a few days out. Take a day or two of easy running then go out convinced you can bust some a**.

Some adivce - Talk to people in the front before the start and try to find a few people with similar goals. Stick to them like glue. Don't go crazy at the start, let people go in the first 800m. Fight anyone who tries to go by you in miles 2 and 3 and go along for the ride.

Good luck and keep us posted.

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Jim24315

1,974 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

44. Sep 26, 2007 11:31 AM

in response to: Biophilia

Phillytom,

I see the faster ones as more of a peaking workout to take you all the way there. Doing a lot of threshold work will take longer but I believe you will reach a higher peak and it will last longer. If you rush into a lot of hard stuff, you will be racing faster sooner, but progress is likely to stall sooner.

I'm an old man now but have been progressing for the past 3 years. My last two 5k's have been breakthroughs, and they came during HM training--stuff like 1000's at 10k pace, 6 x 1600 at HM, and long tempos at MP. I guess that's where a lot of my bias comes from, but I've seen this sort of thing happen with other runners too and have a good coach advocates a more gradual, steady progression rather than the quick fix approach.

From Steve Scott:

"During my career, the most important aspect of my training regime was strength. You can spend the rest of your life working on speed and make little progress, but if you spend the rest of your running career working on strength, you?ll always continue to improve. Improvements are also achieved by increasing your endurance. What do I mean by strength or endurance? Mileage, Mileage, Mileage! The more miles you can run, the stronger you will become."

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