quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yoshiko:
I have been training for my 2nd half following Pfitz's "Road racings for serious runners" (half training Schedule A; less than 30mpw, 6wks to goal). My training to date was based on a target goal of 8:00 pace. Last Sat, I ran a tune-up 10K at 7:09 pace and I think I am capable of running faster than 8:00 pace half. According to several race predictor, a predicted pace for half is anywhere from 7:22~7:35. That is a huge jump, mentally, from what I have been training based on and I am not confident at all. Sure, I did run some of tempo run at 7:30ish pace but they were nowhere near 13.1mile long. How do I approach revising a goal pace? Should I do 'race pace' long run (i.e. 10mile total including 7 at goal pace) and see how it goes? My volume is not large as you can see (I do bike and swim, in addition to 3/wk running) and it takes me more than a few days to recover from hard efforts. There is no prize at the end (i.e. qualifying for Boston), so I can start aggressively, at like 7:35 and see how long I can maintain the pace (if I crash, so what)? Or start conservatively at like 7:50 and build upon from there? Another thing is, a goal race was supposed to be in 6 weeks, but due to a schedule conflict, I may pick a different half which is 3 weeks away. So basically I may have only 1week before a taper. What pace would you target? (I ran 2 marathon one of which is Boston this year, if that helps).

<HR>

You are capable of running faster than 8:00 pace for a half. However, you'll probably have trouble running what your 10k projects because of inadequate mileage.

"Should I do 'race pace' long run (i.e. 10mile total including 7 at goal pace) and see how it goes?"
Sounds like as a good of an idea as any.

"So basically I may have only 1week before a taper. "
You don't need to taper. That's for people who run higher mileage. If you are beat up from pounding out 120-mile weeks, then yes, taper a little for key races. For people running 30-40 mpw it is silly.

I think you can probably run sub-8 for a half marathon, but if you want to go much faster you'll probably need to train more. I say go ahead with that goal pace run you mentioned and see how it feels. If you opt for the half in 3 weeks you'd better do it soon.

Good luck

runninlaw,

I've read several of your posts and believe that the great majority of your advice is good. However, I respectfully disagree with you on this one.

There is no advantage in tapering unless you are feeling beat up. In fact it's a disadvantage unless you are. In my opinion this is one of the most least understood parts of training. I'll take it a step further and say that if you ARE feeling beat up after running 30-40 mpw then you are either training harder than what is optimal for your condition or you should really ask yourself if you are ready to race such long distances.

So many people just throw in a taper whether they need it or not. It's almost a fad. THAT is what is ridiculous.

My suggestion is that you keep an open mind and also keep good records of all your training and races. Try going into some races that you would normally taper for and keep your miles up. Make note of when you run your best times. If you usually seem to run better after an taper, then by all means do it, but again, keep an open mind.

I am NOT, btw, saying that you should go into races with tired legs. What I am saying is that it is very possible to go into races without tired legs and still keep your miles up by running easily for as many days as it takes. This has been proven to me time and again. It works much better than taking days off and cutting mileage way back. I first discovered it by accident. I thought I was unusual until I had some discussions with Tinman. Come to find out, it's not unusual at all, and he's worked with 100's of runners at all levels.

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runninlaw,

We are probably not that far apart. When I hear the word "taper" I generally think of something longer than the 4-6 days you mention. Personally I might cut mileage just a little during the last week but usually not take a day off. I always run easy the day before unless the race is not important at all, and in the great majority of instances I go easy the last 2 or more days. That said, I?ve had some good results doing a longish, but very slow runs 2 days before and even the day before. I find that it is the hard runs that trash the legs rather than longish ones. By ?longish? I mean 10-13 miles rather than something approaching 2 hours.

Am I against tapering for longer races? I think you usually have to taper at least a little for the marathon, but not always a lot for the half. Again, the marathon taper depends on the situation and the person. Some don?t need much at all, and some need a longer, deeper one. Generally, someone running low mileage will suffer in the marathon if they taper to a level even lower than what they had been doing. For the half marathon I have coming up Oct 14 my last 3 weeks will be something like 67, 70, and then 55 miles for race week. The Wednesday before will be a light workout of 4 x 1k at 10k pace, followed by 4 x 200 at mile pace, all with about twice as long of a recovery jog as I normally take. Then it will be a slow 6, 8, and 5 miles the next 3 days with the race on Sunday.

I haven?t run a marathon since 1993, having run only 7 since I took up running near the end of 1978, but I might try one more before I?m finished, possible next year or even December at Cal International. Here is an article by Tinman that I found interesting called ?Marathon Peaking?. It could just as easily have been titled ?Marathon Tapering?:

http://therunzone.com/MarathonPeaking.html[/URL" target="_blank">

Let me know what you think. Do you consider to yourself to be more of a "slow twitcher" , "fast twitcher", or something in between?

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for the article. I have actually read that one a couple of times b/c I am trying to figure out if I am a fast twitcher or slow twitcher. Honestly I haven't run enough races to find out. I have done best in the marathon and the one mile - but those are distances I have specifically trained for. I am still working on getting my 5K, 10K and half times where they should be - but those are the races I usually do during training for the marathon.

I have only been running "seriously" for about 2 years. Once I get more racing experience I will be able to read my needs better. I just started my taper phase for my fall marathon and I am trying to pay close attention to my body so I know if I am tapering enough, too much, just right, etc.

As RunForRun says, we are an experiment of one....

exciton - so you don't taper for the marathon - you just rely on gels? Don't you think you would do even better if you tapered AND used gels?

Yoshiko - exactly! You are in a different situation from those of us that only (or primarily) run. And you also stated it takes you a while to recover. That is very valuable stuff that we only learn through doing and paying attention. What I have found through my admittedly limited running experience is that every experience gives your more insight - everyone is different - listening to yourself is key. Cheesy - yeah, but trust me on this one! No running book, article or coach is going to be able to tell you what is right for you until you can base it on experience.

I generally think Pfitz's programs are very solid. But again, it depends on the individual and what is going on with you. I did the Pfitz 18/55 for my fall marathon in 06. Followed the taper to the letter (even though it took me a long time to catch up to the schedule) and I felt awesome during the taper and the race (even BQed). Did the same program in the winter and it felt pretty "easy" throughout. Come race day everything fell apart (Nor'easter, illness, blind optimism that the weather wasn't so bad so I went out at my hopeful pace anyway). You never really know.

I think the key for any race is to be prepared (train), rest (whatever amount you may need) and pray for good conditions on race day.

Good luck to you. I look forward to hearing how you wind down and how your results go. Please keep us posted.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yoshiko:
I fell totally apart on the day of Boston marathon, too, I would like to think mainly due to the downhills. Well, also due to a lack of focus and mental preparation; it was a comeback race from a long nagging injury and all I wanted was to finish. But the training went well so I let the excitement take over and boom, I knew I was done by the half point. <HR>

Me too. I guess that is how Boston gets you to come back! Is it the d@mn downhills (who cares about heartbreak hill?) or the stinkin' weather. Or what the heck happened there? Many a runner bemoan that same mentality.....

Enough on that though. Do keep us posted. Best of luck on your upcoming race. Thanks Jim for a lively and informative discussion. I do think we were much closer in mindset than we though in the early stages of our conversation.


http://This message has been edited by runninlaw (edited Sep-18-2007).

I've been doing Tinman's half marathon schedule since June and have had breakthrough PR's at 5k/10k in the the process. Although I've always believed that long endurance can help at all distances, the degree of improvement I've seen at 5k has been a big surprise. Even if I bomb at the half marathon next month, I've already gotten more than I bargained for from his training.