Downhill training

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rootsrunner

238 posts since
Jun 28, 2006

Dec 20, 2007 10:29 PM

Downhill training

My group is 2.5 weeks away from Steamtown and we're contemplating this weekend's workout. We have 13 miles, with 10 @ MP on schedule. Since Steamtown touts a downhill start, and 950' of net elevation loss, I'm pondering an alternate workout for this weekend. We do a monthly long run on hilly country roads, so i do not believe that downhill running is a glaring weakness. Yet we have not run a significant long stretch on downhill.

We have a local road with a 475' loss in 2.75 miles. Click here for g-map.[/URL" target="_blank">

Steamtown course info here.[/URL" target="_blank">

The idea is to run this downhill, then drive back up, run again. After that continue on the 13 miler and add a few at MP.

Any cautionary tips or ideas for us? Is this a good or bad idea with 2 weeks before race?

http://This message has been edited by rootsrunner (edited Sep-19-2007).

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

1. Sep 19, 2007 8:11 PM

in response to: rootsrunner

If you were a complete novice to downhill running without
the ultra experience you have in you, I would say you would
be taking a chance by jumping into such downhill training.
However, you are very experienced in these matters and this
run will most likely do you much more good than harm, although
you may have some quad soreness for a few days. I originally
read somewhere, I believe in Matt Carpenter's Pike's Peak tips,
that a good long downhill run will go along way as a prep for a
race with significant downhill segments. After reading that,
I tried it out (prior to my current training regimen which includes
a lot of long downhills) and it really did the trick, although I
did have about 4 days of quad soreness. I did it by running a
5 mile steady, steep climb into the mountains outside of
Arcadia, CA, and then turning around descending the entire
way.

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Southern Man

757 posts since
Apr 19, 2006

2. Sep 19, 2007 8:23 PM

in response to: rootsrunner

I think that sounds like a pretty good idea in general in terms of specific training. Two weeks out seems a little bit too close to the race to me, though. Maybe that's just me, though.

I ran Steamtown last year. I really did not do any specific downhill training at all. I live in a hilly area (northwestern Virginia) and just ran my normal courses and did fine with the downhills. I even ran many of my long runs on the flats.

I believe the big key at Steamtown is not to let the pace get away from you. Do not attempt to bank time early. Especially watch that fourth mile.

Southern Man

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We're on a road to nowhere. Come on along.

thereshegoes

332 posts since
Jun 15, 2006

3. Sep 20, 2007 9:34 AM

in response to: rootsrunner

Hey roots. I would be a little wary of going crazy with the downhills two weeks before the race. I got a little carried away early in my training for Boston and ended up with a very annoying and painful strained poplieus muscle (a muscle at the top of the calf that acts as a brake during downhill running). Downhill running also stresses the IT bands so if you have any problems with those be careful too. I would just incorporate some downhills via a rolling course to be on the safe side.

pass2086

88 posts since
Sep 30, 2007

4. Sep 20, 2007 10:00 AM

in response to: rootsrunner

Speaking of downhilll marathons, anyone know of a pace calculator or rule of thumb for taking into account incline/decline? I'm running Tucson in December, which has a steady 2200' total drop, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how much faster I should make my target pace compared to a flat marathon.

rootsrunner

238 posts since
Jun 28, 2006

5. Sep 20, 2007 10:33 AM

in response to: rootsrunner

Thanks for the replies.

At this point in training, we are all a bit mentally rundown and no one is enthused about running 10 @ MP this weekend. The idea is to run this at less intensity, actually an easy pace run with 3 or 6 downhill miles. It should be an easier effort that what is on the schedule.

If we do this downhill run, MP will not be the focus. I want us to run at an easy, flowing pace -- getting the legs to turn comfortably on a long downhill. This road is 2.75 miles down. I will recommend the option to run it once or twice. The rest of the run will be on flat terrain at an easy pace.

leitnerj- thanks for the feedbck and the caution on sore quads. Course-specific training, whether on road or trails, and for marathons or ultras, has been a good formula for me.

Southern Man- great feedback on your Steamtown experience. How did Steamtown turn out for you? I will heed the mile 4 caution.

thereshegoes- thanks for reminding me of Boston. Going back to my log for the year I did Boston I did similar training to this season, with only long runs on hilly country roads. No specific downhill training. I focused more on the newton hills than the opening downhill. I will be careful not to overdo it this weekend.

Southern Man

757 posts since
Apr 19, 2006

6. Sep 20, 2007 8:53 PM

in response to: rootsrunner

quote:<HR>Originally posted by rootsrunner:
Thanks for the replies.

Southern Man- great feedback on your Steamtown experience. How did Steamtown turn out for you? I will heed the mile 4 caution.
<HR>

Everybody who has been on these board for a while can stop reading, because I'm about to tell the story again. I ran Steamtown aiming for a BQ of 3:15. Did very well keeping on pace, was about two minutes ahead by mile 21 but struggled a big over the last five miles and finished in 3:16:04, missing by BQ by :05. Had a great time and thoroughly enjoyed the race. All of miles 3-8 or so are pretty steep, but 4 is the one that really seems most severe. I ran a 6:48 with a goal pace of 7:27.

Southern Man

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We're on a road to nowhere. Come on along.

rbbmoose

324 posts since
Oct 12, 2007

7. Sep 21, 2007 2:24 PM

in response to: rootsrunner

I ran SteamTown in 2005.... The start is a very long, steep downhill and I may have gone out a bit fast (or not done quite enough downhill training). - My first 10 miles were pretty close to 6:00 - but like SouthernRunner, I gave a lot of that back (finished at 2:46ish) - and my quads were pretty trashed.

My two cents would be that if you haven't trained for the downhills yet (and it sounds like you have) then any workout two weeks before the marathon is not going to do you much good and you run risk of injury etc. that could well hurt.

Ray

Niecie081

28 posts since
Apr 30, 2001

8. Dec 20, 2007 10:29 PM

in response to: rootsrunner

Downhill racer...I too am going to Tucson..I am hoping for a 3:15:00. I ran 3:17:04 at Cal. International last year and am hoping Tucson will give me the 2 minutes...what type of downhill training ARE you doing. Mine has been spotty. I live in a very hilly area. Do you think the altitude will affect us? Have you heard anything about a course change and what that might be?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Downhill Racer:
Speaking of downhilll marathons, anyone know of a pace calculator or rule of thumb for taking into account incline/decline? I'm running Tucson in December, which has a steady 2200' total drop, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how much faster I should make my target pace compared to a flat marathon.<HR>

http://This message has been edited by Niecie (edited Oct-01-2007).

pass2086

88 posts since
Sep 30, 2007

9. Oct 1, 2007 6:22 PM

in response to: rootsrunner

Hey, it's good to run into someone else doing Tucson!

I haven't been doing anything too organized about the downhill, to be honest. I've always liked downhill stuff, and it didn't occur to me until a couple of days ago reading MarathonGuide that 26 miles of it might be a different story. I'm still not too worried since I trained for San Francisco in July and did lots of hills for that. Mainly, I try to make sure I get some real hills in on my long runs. I've also been doing some of my MP miles on slight declines. I think the only thing I'm going to change is to add some hills to my mid-week medium-long runs, which have mostly been on the treadmill recently. If you're doing your runs in a hilly area normally, I bet the downhill won't bother you much (until afterwards).

Hadn't thought about altitude until recently either. Not much to be done about that. I live in Washington DC, more or less at sea level. Haven't heard about the final course yet.

I did 3:27 in SF, and I'm theoretically shooting for 3:10-3:17. Still reserving my judgment on whether that's a realistic goal or not.

What's your training been like so far?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Niecie:
Downhill racer...I too am going to Tucson..I am hoping for a 3:15:00. I ran 3:17:04 at Cal. International last year and am hoping Tucson will give me the 2 minutes...what type of downhill training ARE you doing. Mine has been spotty. I live in a very hilly area. Do you think the altitude will affect us? Have you heard anything about a course change and what that might be?
<HR>

Dec 20, 2007 10:29 PM

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