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3364 Views 31 Replies Latest reply: Dec 20, 2007 10:31 PM by kudzurunner RSS Go to original post 1 2 3 Previous Next
  • Biophilia Rookie 174 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    15. Oct 6, 2007 8:17 AM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    I too, would think that if the substance were completely safe, then I don't see a reason for a ban. Though I see a few problems with this.

    What if it's not safe? There have been countless times where we think something is safe and then years later, with better technology and more data, we see that it's not. The very nature of something that improves your performance means that it must be at least somewhat invasive to the body. So it's more likely to cause some side effects down the road.

    What about comparisons over time. Changing the rules at one point means that you'll lose connection with the past and that's never a good thing imo. If a natural and healthy performance enhancing substance were found next year and all the world records get reduced by 5%-10% then it would be like a completely different sport.

    So now you have this natural harmless pill that improves running performance and is legal. Well, then what you have is a pill attached to a sport. Everyone will be thinking you can't be a runner without taking that pill, and thats not right.

  • mcsolar99 Legend 1,014 posts since
    Aug 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    16. Oct 6, 2007 8:57 PM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    here's the 2006 wada substance list:
    http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/2006_LIST.pdf[/URL" target="_blank">

    page 8 shows caffeine as a monitored substance, but not specifically banned.

    cocaine is derived from a plant, is all natural, and is banned; most of the other substances are equally no-brainers.

    protein, carbs and fats aren't banned.  except some carbs called alcohol, which are banned only in competition for sports listed on the last page.  personally, i'd like to know why a powerboater can drink 3 times as much alcohol as an archer, but there's the mystery of wada for you.

  • JimR022 Rookie 984 posts since
    Jan 16, 2002
    Currently Being Moderated
    17. Oct 6, 2007 11:29 PM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    The guiding principle really comes down to stepping outside of the normally available.  Food, water, protein, that sort of stuff, is something we normally take in.  Sure, we've figured out how these things affect performance and thus target our intake accordingly, but that's just a knowledge issue and not a supplement issue.  Stuff like steroids and hormones and epo and things that we simply wouldn't normally be exposed to is a whole other ball game.  Training cycles and methodologies can be claimed to be performance enhancing as well, but again these are knowledge and information issues.

    As for Marion Jones, I kinda shake my head at it all.  Here's someone who adamantly denied taking steroids, claiming absolutely no wrong doing, and then in the end admits it was all a lie.  This shows that professional athletes aren't above cheating and lying.  Who do you believe anymore?  It's not just here, there's a multitude of others.

  • AndyHass Rookie 1,368 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    18. Oct 7, 2007 9:27 AM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    HGH does indeed have harmful long-term effects.  The fact that quack doctors lining their pockets with expensive shots to aging rich folks doesn't make it different.  Anytime we start giving hormones the body has decided not to produce at a certain age, bad things can happen.  THe same fountain of youth thing was said about post-menopausal estrogen for women, now we find that it greatly increased the risk of breast cancer.

    The other point is that this is an expensive shot. So if legal, everyone who wanted to compete on a level playing field would need to go get this series of shots? Ridiculous.

    Even Caffeine and all other legal "performance enhancers" are things readily available to anyone and not really out of the ordinary. Even altitude tents only give sea level people something that could be gained by moving to altitude.

    Once you start requiring shots and infusions, harm or not, it presents a pretty clear line.

    On the note of the prevelance of banned substances, a friend of mine was in a USATF national relay and got a cold.  He called me from the store to read from the back of medicines while I scanned WADA and USATF to see what ingredients were banned.  It took us AN HOUR to find anything he could take legally.

  • George in Santa Clara Rookie 210 posts since
    Aug 28, 2005
    Currently Being Moderated
    19. Oct 7, 2007 12:22 PM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    quote:


    Originally posted by obsessor:

    You can (I believe, in most cases) leave yourself something to pick up along the route, but you can't have a cohort hand you special things, or your wife biking alongside you, handing you water and advice or whatever. However those rules usually only come into play if someone files an official complaint.


     



    Did you mean having a cohort of people surrounding you like what Lance Armstrong had last year?

    And while we are at it, Lance hadn't been caught but who knows if he was really clean.

  • RunForFun001 Pro 626 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    20. Oct 9, 2007 6:49 PM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    Obsessor - Serious question -

    If you are prescribed a "Banned" drug for medical purposes - An example is for Shingles - Standard practice is to prescribe Steroids - What are you suppose to do?

    1) As a casual runner - I would not avoid running a race because of it.

    2)  An elite runner - Do they just not take the medication???  Do the report the medication to a sanctioning body?  Do they just not run any races until it has cleared their system?

  • Southern Man Rookie 757 posts since
    Apr 19, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    21. Oct 9, 2007 9:20 PM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    quote:


    Originally posted by RunForFun:

    Obsessor - Serious question -

    2) An elite runner - Do they just not take the medication??? Do the report the medication to a sanctioning body? Do they just not run any races until it has cleared their system?


     



    There are provisions for a therapeutic use exemption. I do not know the details of those provisions.

    Southern Man


    ----



    We're on a road to nowhere.  Come on along.

  • obsessor Rookie 473 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    22. Oct 10, 2007 10:35 AM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    quote:


    Originally posted by RunForFun:

    Obsessor - Serious question -

    If you are prescribed a "Banned" drug for medical purposes - An example is for Shingles - Standard practice is to prescribe Steroids - What are you suppose to do?

    1) As a casual runner - I would not avoid running a race because of it.

    2) An elite runner - Do they just not take the medication??? Do the report the medication to a sanctioning body? Do they just not run any races until it has cleared their system?


     



    Races are really stepping up the testing - TCM tested quite a few people. It's a good thing, but it's also very expensive for the race. If you think you could win money in any USATF competition during the next year, I would not even risk anything over the counter, other than Ibuprofen, maybe. As the WADA says, paraphrasing, "even we don't know everything we're currently banning, and new things are added to the list every day." So, clearly, it's safest to take nothing. Personally, I won't take any cold medications, and I don't take any proscribed medications except once taking an antibiotic (which are specifically allowed.)

    Yes, there's a procedure to get exemptions in certain cases for proscribed medications.  The whole thing is complex enough - I recognize next to nothing on their list.  My solution is to take nothing.  But I like to drink a lot of coffee.

  • obsessor Rookie 473 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    23. Oct 10, 2007 10:43 AM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    quote:


    Originally posted by gcklo:

    Did you mean having a cohort of people surrounding you like what Lance Armstrong had last year?

    And while we are at it, Lance hadn't been caught but who knows if he was really clean.


     



    You can usually have "pacers" and the like if they are also registered participants.  In general, you cannot recieve outside aid.  Having running domestiques... I have no idea.  I would carefully consult the rules of competition.  For me, I suppose this would realistically come into play for a thing like an Ultra.  I will not run anything other than a short-loop ultra without some sort of outside support.  I've tried it, and it does not work well.  Usually the rules are fairly well laid out for this - fairly specific, and make some allowances.

  • RunForFun001 Pro 626 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    24. Oct 11, 2007 5:54 PM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    Thanks Obsessor -

    I did have shingles - I was prescibed a steroid - weather a performance enhancer - no idea, but I will not be winning any $ or races anytime soon.

    But ... Boy would it suck somehow to get tested and not allowed to do the thing I love.

    I also have a love affair with caffeine - But thats Diet Dew and I do not drink it before a race.

  • bowulf Rookie 99 posts since
    Nov 30, 2005
    Currently Being Moderated
    25. Oct 12, 2007 12:19 AM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    >> Any cold medication that contains a decongestant and is taken orally is banned in-competition with no exceptions.

    Is it unethical for 8:00 pace guy then to take some Sudafed before the race.  They won't be winning the race or even their AG. Are the ethics defined by organizational body or by inner self.  This is serious question as I get exercise induced drippy nose and rather than constantly farmer blow, sudafed (pseudoephedrine) fixes the issue.  Am I breaking the rules of USATF-regulated marathon?

  • VictorN Rookie 395 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    26. Oct 12, 2007 8:33 AM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    quote:


    Originally posted by bowulf:

    >> Any cold medication that contains a decongestant and is taken orally is banned in-competition with no exceptions.

    Is it unethical for 8:00 pace guy then to take some Sudafed before the race. They won't be winning the race or even their AG. Are the ethics defined by organizational body or by inner self. This is serious question as I get exercise induced drippy nose and rather than constantly farmer blow, sudafed (pseudoephedrine) fixes the issue. Am I breaking the rules of USATF-regulated marathon?


     



    Victor

    ----



    www.competitiverunner.com[/URL" target="_blank">

  • obsessor Rookie 473 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    27. Oct 12, 2007 10:49 AM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    quote:


    Originally posted by bowulf:

    >> Any cold medication that contains a decongestant and is taken orally is banned in-competition with no exceptions.

    Is it unethical for 8:00 pace guy then to take some Sudafed before the race. They won't be winning the race or even their AG. Are the ethics defined by organizational body or by inner self. This is serious question as I get exercise induced drippy nose and rather than constantly farmer blow, sudafed (pseudoephedrine) fixes the issue. Am I breaking the rules of USATF-regulated marathon?


     



    Ethics =/= rules =/= health safety

    Clearly, you are breaking the rules if you take something that is not allowed in competition with no exceptions. How is that even a question?

    Is it breaking the rules to dope in the Olympics - so long as you don't win or place? Is it breaking the rules to do this in national competitions? In College? In High school? - but it's OK for you? You are breaking the rules. Ethically and personally - I really don't care, unless you beat me.

    I think they could - and indeed some races do - draw a distinction between those who wish to compete, and those who wish to simply participate.

  • bowulf Rookie 99 posts since
    Nov 30, 2005
    Currently Being Moderated
    28. Oct 12, 2007 7:05 PM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    As it turns out (http://www.usantidoping.org/files/active/what/wallet_card.pdf), the Sudafed is legal.  I am glad that common sense rules in the USATF - if not implied on the website.

  • pismodiver Rookie 38 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    29. Oct 13, 2007 12:12 PM (in response to JasonsDrivingForce)
    Re: When is it cheating?

    quote:


    Originally posted by RunForFun:

    Obsessor - Serious question -

    If you are prescribed a "Banned" drug for medical purposes - An example is for Shingles - Standard practice is to prescribe Steroids - What are you suppose to do?


     



    The steroids prescribed for conditions like shingles or asthma (typicallly prednisone) are corticosteroids and have no performance enhancing effects at all.

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