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2508 Views 29 Replies Latest reply: Sep 1, 2009 6:16 AM by oldhardballer RSS Go to original post 1 2 Previous Next
  • Joe Barth Rookie 2 posts since
    Jan 27, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    15. Aug 31, 2009 6:30 AM (in response to tumblebug)
    Re: Cooperstown Dreams Park-NATC

    Dear Sirs,

    You are completely off base with your criticism of my coaches at Cooperstown. You obviously were not there. My coaches did what they could to keep the score down, short of striking out on purpose. They stopped running in the first inning, went station to station and did not advance on most balls, bunted the ball right back to the pitcher a number of times to no avail, and batted opposite handed for the last couple innings. Nothing helped. After 2innings it was 35-0. Our coach and the other coach pleaded to have the game stopped. That team should not have been in the tournament. That coach should have pulled his team off the field. We were told if we pulled our team off we would forfeit, we had to play 3 innings. The bottomline is we did what we could.We used every tactic normally used to keep the score down. The tournament offical told my coach, who was very upset, that he did everything he could have done, not to worry about it. Now, I read nothing about what really happened and the story has grown a life of its own. Here is the bottomline! The Arsenal is a first-class organization and always tries to display sportsmanship and do the right thing. The coaches and the kids did everything in their power to keep the score down and it just wasn't possible because that poor team just couldn't catch a ball. They literally ran away from the ball when it was hit to them.The tournament officials should have stopped the game. Period. You are blaming the wrong people.

             

     

     

     

     

  • oldhardballer Legend 787 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    16. Aug 31, 2009 7:56 AM (in response to oldhardballer)
    Re: Cooperstown Dreams Park-NATC

    Wasnt there, didnt see any of the games, but I am confused about why a team that registered for the tournament, played in the seeding process and then actually played better ball then the rest of the field is being so slammed by some posters? Is 53-0 a good game?  No...but is it the kids fault?  How about placing some blame on these coaches of these other teams that brought such substandard teams to this tournament?  They had to know that their teams weren't in the same league of the other teams and instead of just going there "to be there" is really not very smart and subjects your less than quality team to embaressment.  As far as the Owner of the Tournament(never heard of someone who owned a tournament) refusing to award the championship trophies, he should be castrated (you dont hurt kids like that).  Some posters will say "Well they hurt other kids, by beating up on them with high scores"? but thats a cop out.  They were just a better team.  Again, I wasnt there but I think we are placing a lot of blame on the wrong ppl.  Get better coaching for these teams being humiliated and stop blamming coaches who do a good job in teaching the skills to their kids.   

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    17. Aug 31, 2009 8:53 AM (in response to oldhardballer)
    Re: Cooperstown Dreams Park-NATC

    I was there.  I was not working the infamous slaughter game, but I did work first base for one of Arsenal's other games. 

     

    As Mr Barth said, this story has taken on a life of it's own.  Only those who were there for the slaughter game know the true story.  The one consistent discription, however, is that CDP officials would not allow either team to stop the game.  It had to be played until the 4th inning.

     

    In the game that I worked, on one instance, I saw the first base coach call his runner back on a passed ball.  The kid clearly had a huge jump and could have made it to second easily.  After the runner got back to first base, the coach chastised him and told him not to go to second unless the ball was hit.  He also told him to stop at second when he got there.

     

    I had no problems with the players of coaches on The Arsenal.  They all acted like gentlemen during our game.

     

    I was not there for the closing ceremonies.  I left early so I could go to Williamsport and take in a couple of games on the way home.  I have no idea how the fans acted toward the team during the Championship Game.  I don't know if the park owner normally presents the championship trophy or not.

     

    In my humble opinion, the entire problem was created by a park policy that would not allow the game to be stopped after it had gotted that far out of control.

  • Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    18. Aug 31, 2009 9:18 AM (in response to Mason_Dixon_Blue)
    Re: Cooperstown Dreams Park-NATC

    Seems to be two different stories (what a surprise).

    You say: My coaches did what they could to keep the score down, short of striking out on purpose. They stopped running in the first inning, went station to station and did not advance on most balls ...

     

    Yet someone else posted: It was even worse than it sounds. They never dialed it down against an obviously inferior team. When the score was 47-0, they stole home on a throwback to the pitcher to score the 48th run.

     

    If your side of the story is true then "no problem" with what you did, if the other story is true then "shame on your team"!

     

    My question is:

    Did your team/organization really "get banned" from CDP and if so, what was the "reason" given?

     

     

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    19. Aug 31, 2009 10:09 AM (in response to Lou_B)
    Re: Cooperstown Dreams Park-NATC

    Here is the bottomline! The Arsenal is a first-class organization and always tries to display sportsmanship and do the right thing.

     

    I have no dog in this fight, obviously.  My only question, since you never really addressed it:  Did The Arsenal really get banned from future CDP tournaments?

     

    Re: Cooperstown Dreams Park-NATC

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    20. Aug 31, 2009 11:37 AM (in response to Joe Barth)
    Editorial Story

    Here's an interesting take from a sports writer in Massachusetts.

     

    Story

     

    I found this comment particularly intriguing:  "An umpire told me the Fairmount coach asked to concede the game after the second inning, but the Arsenal coach refused because his team was going for the record for most home runs in a week."

  • THECOACH__44 Legend 289 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    21. Aug 31, 2009 12:34 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Editorial Story

    Joe Barth

     

    Its getting worse. Maybe you should consider being Obama's press secretary. Spin is in.

  • oldhardballer Legend 787 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    22. Aug 31, 2009 1:16 PM (in response to THECOACH__44)
    Re: Editorial Story

    Manny, did u read all the responses to that article from ppl actually at the game.  they call the writer a hack who doesnt know the game or what he is talking about , but was just looking for a good headline??  Would a jounalist do this ???  I too, have no dog in this fight, and Im not related to Michael Vick.  LOL  Don

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    23. Aug 31, 2009 2:06 PM (in response to oldhardballer)
    Re: Editorial Story

    I only saw the one response that was in line pretty much with what Mr. Barth mentioned above.  Were there more that I didn't see?

     

    I don't condone what this writer wrote about heckling the coaches.  He sounds like a Rick Reilly wannabe.  I just found it interesting that this was the one and only article on the incident I tracked down using Google.  I did not find any rebuttal articles.  If none of this really happened, at the very least I would expect The Arsenal to have something on its own website letting folks know they were never banned or anything else like that.

  • oldhardballer Legend 787 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    24. Aug 31, 2009 2:12 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Editorial Story

    Agreed, too many loose ends and too many He said She said info out there.  Don

  • TG. Legend 954 posts since
    Jul 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    25. Aug 31, 2009 3:30 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Cooperstown Dreams Park-NATC

    This isn't intended to be a defense or a poke at Arsenal. It's just my exposure to the program. I know a little about the Arsenal from coaching against them, my son playing against them and getting to know some of the parents.

     

    The Arsenal program does a very good job of placing their 17U and 18U players in quality college programs. Joe Barth is very well connected in the college community. An ACC coach once told me he's one of the best hitting instructors in the country. If not for distance and traffic my son would be taking hitting lessons there.

     

    I found the 13U and 14U teams to be a bit arrogant. But maybe you can be a little arrogant if you can back it up. They never mercied us. We did beat them a couple of times. When my son was 14U a player, an Arsenal player injured him on an over aggressive slide. The coaching staff and the dad were apologetic. I still communicate with the dad on another site. My son skippped 15U. At 16U I found the players to be more subdued and businesslike rather than obnoxiously rowdy. Maybe that comes with maturation. There's also a fairly good size roster turnover from 13U to 16U from pretenders to players. However my son still says he'd rather beat them than play for them. It's just his personal preference based on the 13U/14U exposure.

     

    I don't really have any experience on the 9U to 12U programs other than watching parts of games when those age groups were at the same complex as when my son played 13U and 14U. I spoke with delusional parents who thought their sons were on the way to college ball just by being in the program. If you've seen my history here, you know how I feel about preteen travel (beyond community based) and academy training and teams. But if there are sucker parents willing to whip out the wallet, making money is the American way.

     

    If you go to the Arsenal website you will not see bragging of winning tournament after tournament. You will not see bragging of where they place players in college ball. You will see nothing but general information and where their teams are ranked nationally from 14U to 18U. If you go to the academy website you won't see anything about the travel teams except a link back to the travel team site. Yes, they can sometimes appear arrogant on the field at the younger ages. But it's a first class organization.

     

    I've coached a 10U (community based) travel game my team won 56-2. It's an uncomfortable feeling. No one wins. I could tell before the game what was going to happen. I just couldn't believe to the degree it occurred. My team was up 18-0 after one. I offered to accept a 6-0 forfeit and have a scrimmage. I made the same offer at 34-0 after two.

     

    After the first inning non pitchers pitched, infielders played outfield and vice versa. Any kid who wanted was allowed to bat the opposite way. We took standup doubles on balls to the fence. We did take the base if a wild pitch/passed ball went all the way to the backstop. I told parents if they felt they had to cheer for hits, they had to leave. The game was nothing to get excited about. And the two runs we allowed pitching non pitchers cost us a notch in seeding after pool play.

  • zombywoof Expert 48 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    26. Aug 31, 2009 3:38 PM (in response to oldhardballer)
    Re: Editorial Story

    When teams win with these lopsided scores, it's usually because the losers can't even get out of their own way and the winning team scores with little effort. There's nothing you can do about it. Nobody should be complaining.

     

    That NATC week was a tournament of champions week and that Fairmont team apparently got slaughtered a number of games there. If that team had any complaints, then shame in them for showing up at such a tournament where they were over their head. With some of those scores, they should've just played in local town all-star tournaments.

     

    Now if the Arsenal were stealing bases on throwbacks to the pitcher, that's a bit much but shame on Fairmont coaching for not preparing their players if they let it happen.

     

    I've heard about the Arsenal team and know they're one of the top teams in NJ. My son played on a couple of different teams with a former Arsenal player. I do know they get top talent in the state and I'm guessing their youinger players are talented as well.

     

    I remember when my kid was in high school and his legion team oplayed a game in which they were up 31-0 after 2 innings and won somehing like 40-1. They scored without any effort and my son, who was the second best hitter on that team was out with an injury. The coaches called off the dogs when it was about 12-0 in the first inning but if a player hit a gap shot to the fence, he's not gonna embarrass the other team by stopping at 1B when he should be on 2B or 3B. That's rubbing it into the loser team.

     

    Sounds like this is much about nothing and the writer in that story in the link sounds like a crackpot.

     

    We've been on the other side of those games too and nobody likes being on the short end of a 53-0 pasting but it happens and some peeps ned to get over it and move on.

  • TG. Legend 954 posts since
    Jul 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    27. Aug 31, 2009 6:36 PM (in response to TG.)
    Re: Cooperstown Dreams Park-NATC

    It appears there were a lot of people lacking any class at this tournament. If it was the adults behaving this way, shame on them. If it was the kids, shame on the adults as parents.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    28. Sep 1, 2009 4:50 AM (in response to zombywoof)
    Re: Editorial Story

    Perhaps CDP ought to consider some kind of run limits for their games.  If there really is that much of a disparity between teams, the losers won't catch up even with a run limitation.  Wins by 15 to 50 runs aren't fun to play, watch, or umpire.

  • oldhardballer Legend 787 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    29. Sep 1, 2009 6:16 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Editorial Story

    Manny, maybe we can suggest to the Tournament Owner???  (Still dont understand that one), that they use Football Referees who might be more accustomed to these scores ??

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