Would you say you have great speed but almost no endurance? I would guess so. I think right now you really need to add more miles, since you're pretty much doing no endurance work at all.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Josh Lindenmuth:
Surprisingly, I would say I have great endurance and no speed. I can go out and run 10 miles at a 7:30-8 minute/mile pace without any problem. I had the same problem in high school. My fastest track 400 was a pitiful 72 and my 800 was a 2:25, yet I ran 74-75s for each 400 in a mile. That's why I'm focusing on speed now. Just looking for pointers ...

The catch is that I want to be able to break a 5 minute mile AND bench 300
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Your going to likely need to run a solid 60-61 second 400 metre to run a 5 minute mile. Seeing as you have better endurance than speed, its possible that you can squeek by and maybe do 62's for your 400 metre best... but thats about as far as I'd realistically go.

Chances are that if you worked at it... you can run much faster now than you did in high school because your alot more muscular. Alot of people tend to get faster (at the 400 metre) with age up to a point, especially people who might have been skinnier in high school. You gain strength and speed as your body matures... so all that weightlifting you did, can maybe be turned into an asset to help you run faster... which in turn will certainly help bring your mile time down.

What are you running the 400 metre in now?

To be perfectly honest.... I think you really need to prioritize. You cant have it both ways.... you either have to decide... running.... or weightlifting.... thats it. Running a 5 minute mile is a serious untertaking, even for fairly good runners... and you have to make the choice, and thats going to involve sacrifice. You cant expect to take your goal seriously if your going to impose limits on yourself from the outset by declaring that your not willing to run more than 25 miles per week.

I'm not saying you need to run any massive mileage... I'm just saying you have to decie how serious you are about achieving your gaol, and then be willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that. You have to be willing to be a little bit flexible here as far as your weightlifting goals go. If you could only life 280 pounds instead of 300 pounds.... but you could achieve your 5 minute mile... would it be worth it to you? You might have to sacrifice a little of one thing to to gain a little of another thing..... not that I even really believe you have to sacrifice.... I'm just saying that you should be willing to sacrifice if need be. A 5 minute mile is really an admirable goal... so its worth a little sacrificing in other areas. I'm a cyclist in addition to being a runner, and I usually have to sacrifice my biking performance quite a bit whenever I set some serious running goal for myself.... its just what you have to do.

You have already proved to yourself that your capable of packing on the muscle... so what if you lose a few pounds... you should have no problem putting the muscle back on and getting back to benching 300 in no time.

For now, I say do whatever it takes to achieve your running goal and dont worry about something so trivial (in my mind) as losing 4 or 5 pounds. You can make that up later if you really so desire.

One goal at a time.... You simply cannot impose artificial restrictions on yourself that involve two conflicting goals, its counterproductive and in the end, you can end up failing in both rather than achieving either goal. Running by its very nature, sometimes involves a bit of weight loss.... Its a sacrifice you might have to make ...just accept it and work towards your goal... or dont go for the goal at all, stick to weightlifting if thats really the most importantthing to you.

http://This message has been edited by LI Runner (edited Oct-10-2005).

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Josh Lindenmuth:
Not sure. I'll run one this week and reply. Probably not that fast, although I'm sure under 90 since my mile is close to 6:00 now =)

However, I find it far more challenging and rewarding to be able to perform both at the same time.<HR>

If you could run a 5 minute mile with 70'ish second 400 metre sprints... you are a statistical abberation (pardon if that sounds sort of impersonal). Thats pretty extreme, because statistically it usually doesnt work out that way......

If anything that actually makes you extremely lucky because it probably means your blessed with rather extreme levels of endurance or a really high lactate threshold or whatnot. I've known 1 or 2 people who were like that, including a guy who is one of the fastest runners in my local area and he wins most of the road races.... He was a 4:25- miler in high school but yet he could barely break 61 or 62 seconds in the 400.

Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to discourage you from weightlifting, that wasn't really my purpose per se'... I was just driving home the point that sacrifices or trade-offs are part of the atheletes lifestyle. It can be really hard to dedicate oneself totally to doing two sports simultaneously. Thats a feat that can physically and mentally drain even the most dedicated person. If you could keep up your current level of strength and eventually reach your 5 minute mile at the same time, all the better!

http://This message has been edited by LI Runner (edited Oct-10-2005).

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Wile E:
Why?<HR>

Why what? Why do I want to run a sub 5:00 mile, or why do I want to do both that + bench 300, or why something else? The biggest reason why for any is just because I like to set and achieve goals. I find that running/lifting/working/etc towards goals is far more rewarding than just running/lifting/etc for the heck of it.

Josh

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quote:<HR>Originally posted by Josh Lindenmuth:
Why what? Why do I want to run a sub 5:00 mile, or why do I want to do both that + bench 300, or why something else? The biggest reason why for any is just because I like to set and achieve goals. I find that running/lifting/working/etc towards goals is far more rewarding than just running/lifting/etc for the heck of it.
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Is this for a specific "competition" or something? a bar bet? all in one day?

Sorry if this offends and maybe I'm wrong, but it just appears to be a vanity driven scatter-brain of athletic goals.

I think in the end you will come back to respect each accomplisment on their own merits and specific training requirements.

Good luck though!

It is indeed freakish to run 6:0x and only be able to do 71 or so in the 400m. However, it actually makes your goal more realistic since it's easier to build speed without running huge mileage. I'll consider this below.

Right after college, there was a point where I could bench about 230lbs and run 4:3x in the mile (5'10", 150 lbs). So I wouldn't say your goal is impossible, in fact I recall there being an article a few years back in RUnner's World about a guy who could bench 300 and run a 16:00 5k (5:09 pace).

I do agree that you need to "periodize". First, get the running goal down while not losing any upper body strength. Then, go back and get the bench up there while maintaining your speed. Why? Your body can only handle so much stress, and it will be hard to stress both "systems" enough simultaneously to make good progress. However, it is MUCH easier to maintain what you have in one system while stressing the other.

First phase: Get to sub-5 mile. Try 3 key workouts per week:
1) 8X200 all-out, jog 400m in between.
2) 6X400m, 90sec jogging rest in between
3) "long" run, 8-10 miles
Run easy the other days. Total mileage should actually be in the 30s or maybe even 40s after a couple months. Don't worry, I ran 60mpw while I was building up to my 225 bench. You may not make quick progress on the bench, but that isn't the point here. I won't tell you how to lift in this phase; you clearly know how to lift. All I will say is that the reason I could bench so much at my weight was because I absolutely maximized the strength I had without gaining much size through high reps one day, high weight the next (4 days upper body per week, two of them chest). Keep this up until you get your sub-5 mile.

Second phase: Get bench up there. For running, it isn't necessary that you run a sub-5 mile every week, just check every few weeks to make sure you aren't losing too much ground. The hard part here will be to make sure you don't pack on so much weight that it slows you down. Fortunately, if you work to maintain your sub-5 mile ability, you should be able to keep pace with the relatively slow rate at which you pack on muscle.
Key workouts are similar to those above; add a 4X800m w/3min recovery in here and there.

The speed workouts above are not exclusive (throw some variety in, but they give you the idea) and won't do a lot for your aerobic development. It'd be good to throw a 3-mile tempo in every couple weeks (fast yet edge-of-comfort run).

Good luck...

Andy - fantastic reply, thank you!

BTW - do you (or anyone else) have any good estimates for what time someone should be running a mile based on their fastest 400m times? For example, something like:

fastest 400m - expected 1600m
50 sec - 4:15
60 sec - 5:00
70 sec - 6:00
etc. (those are just made up for example purposes, I'd want to know someone else's estimates). This is really out of curiousity only since I've never focused on speed


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