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1425 Views 12 Replies Latest reply: May 29, 2011 8:01 AM by _Mark__ RSS
laguna_brewers Pro 79 posts since
Feb 24, 2008
Currently Being Moderated

May 23, 2011 12:29 PM

Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

Strange situation.

 

R1 and R2, less than 2 outs.  (LL set of Rules).

 

Batter hits a fly down right field line that looks like it will fall, R1 and R2 are off and running.  F9 makes a really nice catch, and R1 (the slower of the two) is headed back to 1B to tag up, as F9 tries for the DP.  R2 has gained 3B at the time of the throw, which goes over F3 and into DBT.

 

Where to place the runners?

 

R2 should get home and R1 to 3B, due to the throw into DBT.  But, ... does the touch of 3B by R2 negate his ability to return to 2B to complete his "touch up" and advance on the award, so that R2 is no longer in jeopardy for an appeal for not tagging up and touching each base in accordance with the Rules?

 

This was posed to me and I'm scratching my head.......

  • BHanlon Pro 82 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. May 23, 2011 12:39 PM (in response to laguna_brewers)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    R2 has gained 3B at the time of the throw

     

    I am assuming that at this point R2 has not tagged up? When the ball enters DBT the award is 2 bases from the time of throw.  Even though R2 has "gained 3B" he still has to return to 2B to negate  leaving early then your awards are correct R2 to home and R1 tp 3B provided they both tag up or they are subject to appeal. The fact that he gained 3B has no bearing on this matter.

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. May 23, 2011 12:57 PM (in response to laguna_brewers)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    The base awards are correct.  We have had this question before, and I think you are right....R2's touching of 3B negates his ability to go back and correct his error while the ball is dead.

     

    Options:

     

    Ignore the error and hope the defense does NOT appeal.  (Listen to the rosary beads rattling.....)

     

    Go back and re-touch anyway, hoping that the defense will THINK he has corrected his error, betting they will not try an appeal.

     

    R2 is hosed by the rules.

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Bengalvfan Amateur 24 posts since
    May 6, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. May 23, 2011 1:04 PM (in response to laguna_brewers)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    From the PBUC manual page 28 I quote this:

     

    "When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left too soon after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base. A runner may return to a missed base or one he has left too soon when the ball is dead if he has not touched the next base. A runner may of course, return to any base missed or one he has left too soon while the ball is in play unless a follwing runner has scored."

     

    So I would say he cannot go back and retouch 2b, you as the umpire award the appropriate bases and wait for a valid appeal if any.

     

    Dan

  • BHanlon Pro 82 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. May 23, 2011 1:04 PM (in response to laguna_brewers)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    On second thought, you got me on this one!

     

    From JEA:

     

    7.10(b) Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged­.

    Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

    The batter hits a home run. As he rounds third base his coach informs him that he failed to touch second. The runner stops, retouches third...returns to touch second...then proceeds back to third and home. Does his run count?


    RULING: This is an appeal play. The run counts unless the defensive team properly appeals at second. When the ball is dead, a runner may not return to touch a missed base after he has touched the next base.

  • _Mark__ Amateur 22 posts since
    Apr 30, 2000
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. May 23, 2011 4:35 PM (in response to laguna_brewers)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    The runner (R2) had gained 3rd base at the time of the throw, this is well before the ball went into DBT..

     

    If the runner (R2) had not reached 3rd before the ball went out of play but he continued running and then touched 3rd after the ball went dead, then

    he would not be able to legally go back and re-touch 2nd.

     

    But since he didn't touch his next base (which would have been home (since he had already gained 3rd)) after the ball went dead then he is allowed to legally go back to 2nd and re-touch before

    accepting his award of home.

     

    ...................Mark.......................

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. May 23, 2011 6:11 PM (in response to _Mark__)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    What _Mark_ said is correct.  The very play is in the MLBUM:

     

    5.11 Example

    (5) Runners on first and second, one out. Batter hits deep fly ball that is caught by right fielder.

    The runner from second was running when the ball was hit, did not tag up, and proceeds to

    touch and round third base. After the runner from second has rounded third base, the right

    fielder throws behind the runner from first, who is returning to first base. The fielder's throw

    is wild and goes out of play. The umpires call "Time" and award the runners home and third.

    When the umpires call "Time" the runner from second is between third and home, and the

    runner from first is between first and second. At this point the manager yells to the runner

    from second (who is between third and home) to go back and tag up at second base. Is this

    permissible, or is the runner considered a "base beyond" the base he left too soon?

    Ruling: It is permissible for the runner to return to second base while the ball is dead. When

    the ball went out of play the runner originally on second base was past third (between third

    and home). The runner's "next base" is therefore home. While the ball is dead he may return

    to second base and retouch at any time prior to touching home plate. However, if the runner

    advances to and touches home while the ball is dead, he may not return.

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. May 24, 2011 3:27 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    Mark & Rick:

     

    Let's have some more fun with this one!

     

    Suppose R2 has touched third while the ball was still live and is half way home.  Then the ball goes into DBT.

     

    Coach says to go back and retouch 2B.  So--the little urchin being a good Little Leaguer--goes on a beeline back to 2B (a clear violation), and then takes the award to come home by way of touching 3B then home.

     

    Would that be a "Last Time By" ruling?

     

    Mike CVUA

  • _Mark__ Amateur 22 posts since
    Apr 30, 2000
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. May 24, 2011 7:46 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    When he went back across the field , touched 2nd and then 3rd on his way to home ,

    he is not vulnerable to being called out on appeal for his miss of 3rd base while returning to 2nd base.

    So yes the LTB theory applies.

     

    .............Mark...........

  • Mark_in_SD Legend 207 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. May 26, 2011 9:18 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    No, R2 isn't hosed.  The interpretation of the rule is that the runner cannot go back to correct a running mistake once he touches an advance base AFTER the ball becomes dead.  The most commonly used scenario is R1, sinking line drive that F9 picks off just before it hits the ground.  R1 is between 2nd and 3rd when the ball is caught and thrown.  Ball goes into DBT before R1 gets back to 2nd.

     

    Now, there is lots going on here, but the initial award for R1 is home.  IF R1 advances and touches 3rd before doing anything else, he is SOL and can no longer correct return to tag up.  If, instead, he retreats and and tags up, he can no longer be appealed for leaving early AND the base award is changed to 3rd vice Home.

     

    You have essentially the same situation in the OP (minus the confusion of changing base awards).  So long as R2 touched 3rd BEFORE the ball goes out of play and doesn't touch the plate before retreating to retouch 2nd, he is fine.

  • Mark_in_SD Legend 207 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. May 26, 2011 9:21 PM (in response to _Mark__)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    I would disagree.  LTB only applies if the runner passed in close proximity to the base when he missed it.

  • _Mark__ Amateur 22 posts since
    Apr 30, 2000
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. May 29, 2011 8:01 AM (in response to Mark_in_SD)
    Re: Awarded Bases and a DBT throw question

    The close proximity ruling only applies during live play when a runner gains some advantage by missing the base a great distance.

     

    When the ball is dead no base running advantage can be gained by missing a base when returning to his original base;as long as he touches

    correctly while receiving his award he will have corrected any miss.

     

    .................Mark......................

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