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4802 Views 98 Replies Latest reply: Nov 28, 2007 8:01 AM by pigeye097 RSS 1 2 3 ... 7 Previous Next
offended by everything096 Rookie 30 posts since
Jan 6, 2005
Currently Being Moderated

Nov 18, 2007 10:59 PM

Liberal Creationism

Created Equal[/URL" target="_blank">

Last month, James Watson, the legendary biologist, was condemned and forced into retirement after claiming that African intelligence wasn't "the same as ours." "Racist, vicious and unsupported by science," said the Federation of American Scientists. "Utterly unsupported by scientific evidence," declared the U.S. government's supervisor of genetic research. The New York Times told readers that when Watson implied "that black Africans are less intelligent than whites, he hadn't a scientific leg to stand on."<br /><br />I wish these assurances were true. They aren't. Tests do show an IQ deficit, not just for Africans relative to Europeans, but for Europeans relative to Asians. Economic and cultural theories have failed to explain most of the pattern, and there's strong preliminary evidence that part of it is genetic. It's time to prepare for the possibility that equality of intelligence, in the sense of racial averages on tests, will turn out not to be true. <br /><br />If this suggestion makes you angry—if you find the idea of genetic racial advantages outrageous, socially corrosive, and unthinkable—you're not the first to feel that way. Many Christians are going through a similar struggle over evolution. Their faith in human dignity rests on a literal belief in Genesis. To them, evolution isn't just another fact; it's a threat to their whole value system. As William Jennings Bryan put it during the Scopes trial, evolution meant elevating "supposedly superior intellects," "eliminating the weak," "paralyzing the hope of reform," jeopardizing "the doctrine of brotherhood," and undermining "the sympathetic activities of a civilized society."

Interesting comparison...

  • bigapplepie Legend 2,455 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    What does IQ have to do with intelligence? I've got a very high IQ and I'm thick as a brick.

  • pigeye097 Rookie 193 posts since
    Nov 2, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    "To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly," Watson said in a statement he issued at the Royal Society Thursday. "That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief."

  • MiniDriver Rookie 259 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    Watson is your classic nerd with a great knack for science and absolutely no social skills or ability to self-censor.  My boss (who knows him well) speculated that he might have Ausberger's, but that's hardly charitable to folks with Ausberger's who don't share Watson's racism and homophobia.

  • makeda023 Rookie 629 posts since
    Aug 16, 1999
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    same sh*t, different century

  • Dervin Rookie 120 posts since
    Aug 15, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    In Group Differences don't work the same way as population differences.

  • NHSenior Legend 387 posts since
    Nov 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    MIght it be said:

    1) that various races seem to have better or worse health related issues or propensities to good or bad healt in the various parts of the body regardless of where they live on the planet.

    2) the brain is meerly only one of the various organs in the body and why would it or would it not be different in some races.

    3) that some races might seem to be more intelligent or smarter than many other races. I'm not talking about a comparison "down" but a comparison "up"

    [http://This message has been edited by NHSenior (edited Nov-19-2007).|http://This message has been edited by NHSenior (edited Nov-19-2007).]

  • Jim Sullivan032 Rookie 504 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    quote:


    Originally posted by offended by everything:

    ...Interesting comparison...


     

    Only if you overlook the two ideas having nothing in common.

  • pigeye097 Rookie 193 posts since
    Nov 2, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    quote:


    Originally posted by NHSenior:

    MIght it be said:


    3) that some races might seem to be more intelligent or smarter than many other races. I'm not talking about a comparison "down" but a comparison "up"

    [http://This message has been edited by NHSenior (edited Nov-19-2007).|http://This message has been edited by NHSenior (edited Nov-19-2007).]


     



    It might be said, but you are leaving out a couple (at least) of extremely important things.
    1. What is "race"? Is it our more-or-less arbitrary division of humans according to external appearance? Or is there some clear way of making the distinction?
    2. What would it mean to be "smarter" or to "less intelligent"? How much does this depend on the culture of the person taking the test and the person giving the test?

    If I get to design the test, and decide to whom it is given, I guess I could make myself feel pretty smart, if only by an artificial comparison.

  • tazawa055 Rookie 281 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    NHSenior, I think certain ethnicities can be genetically predisposed to certain illnesses, but it is pretty complicated.  This source on breast cancer, for example, shows that women from countries such as Japan have had far lower rates of breast cancer than North American women, and yet the rates are largely the same for Japanese women born in America.  Also, rates are going up in Japan as diet and environment change to a more western style.  Environmental factors are huge.  I'm just saying that it seems to be a bad assumption to make--linking ethnic differences in predisposition to illness to arguments about supposed differences in intelligence.

    http://www.breastcancersource.com/breastcancersourcehcp/10010_11092_0_0_0.aspx?mid=9[/URL" target="_blank">

  • NHSenior Legend 387 posts since
    Nov 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    quote:


    Originally posted by pigeye:

    It might be said, but you are leaving out a couple (at least) of extremely important things.
    1. What is "race"? Is it our more-or-less arbitrary division of humans according to external appearance? Or is there some clear way of making the distinction?
    2. What would it mean to be "smarter" or to "less intelligent"? How much does this depend on the culture of the person taking the test and the person giving the test?

    If I get to design the test, and decide to whom it is given, I guess I could make myself feel pretty smart, if only by an artificial comparison.


     



    You are, of course, correct in one area in which we could discuss all this. What you have asked could also apply to almost all discussions.

    So, if there is no way to discuss it or measure it, how can anyone paying attention in life to the absolute diversity of beings, the great diversity with various species, and diversity in the function and longevity parts of a body, can we say that in one species isn't likely to have the same diversity as virtually millions of other "being" variants.

  • maryk071 Rookie 164 posts since
    Dec 5, 2002
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    Should this type of research be avoided, because of the political and social complications?

  • NHSenior Legend 387 posts since
    Nov 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    quote:


    Originally posted by tazawa:

    Environmental factors are huge. I'm just saying that it seems to be a bad assumption to make--linking ethnic differences in predisposition to illness to arguments about supposed differences in intelligence


     



    I agree that environmental factors are huge, but not all environmental factors happen or disappear over a short measurable time as have others that have been going on since "Lucy" and before.

    Even the origin in the difference in the color of skin is arguable as to whether there is white or black because of adaptation to living in the sun all year or for a reason that hand nothing to do with that and was purely a natural and random mutation of nature.

    Why did you pick out intelligence (the brain) to somehow be protected from natural differences that effect every other part of the body regardless of environment?

  • makeda023 Rookie 629 posts since
    Aug 16, 1999
    Currently Being Moderated
    Re: Liberal Creationism

    Human beings are a young species. "Old" traits, like intelligence, musicality, coordination and such, developed when we were all living together in Africa. The variations we call "race" (hair form, skin color) are much more recent.

    I find it very insulting, discouraging, and telling that after all this time, all of the death and misery and atrocity we have inflicted upon each other in the name of race, we cleave to the belief that some people are better than others.

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