ASA, U16. 3rd baseman for the other team reaches first. And the other coach sends in a courtesy runner for her. (Not quite as absurd as it sounds...this girl is a regular pitcher and I think they are just accustomed to running for her.)
Umpires do not notice or question, but I do.
I immediately asked for time out, and conferred with the home plate umpire. The home plate umpire proceeded to remove the courtesy runner and return the original player to the game but did not indicate a substitution.
I was thinking I could have had the other team burn a sub and force them to re-enter the original girl if they wanted her to hit, but I would rather have had the original girl running than have the pinch runner on base. Even then, how would I have best raised this? And were there any other issues I could have raised?
Should I have waited until a pitch was thrown, a play transpired, etc.?
Thanks for any ideas.
In ASA I believe a sub has entered the game on offense when they touch the base or enter the box. On defense when they reach their position, but I may be wrong.
In FED or HS the ball must be made live before a sub can be considered in the game.
If a mistake is discovered before the ball is live you just fix the mistake, if discovered after the ball is live then the sub is in the game and the original player may only re-enter if eligible.
A good rule of thumb is to always wait till the ball is put in play before pointing out an illegal sub or checking wether it is a courtesy runner or sub.
If the courtesy runner/sub was not eligible to be entered for the runner then this would be an illegal sub and she would be called out and ejected.
I'm not sure if the OP is asking the question in terms of when is the best time to question the substitution so as to hurt the other team (i.e., player called out and ejected), or whether the OP is asking from a sportsmanship standpoint (for lack of a better description). I'll take some heat for this I'm sure, but this is my opinion only. I coach 14U. I've coached 10U and 12U previously. Whenever something like this happens, or my scorekeeper tells me the other team is batting out of order, I always ask the ump about it immediately. I don't wait to try and catch the other team in an illegal substitution situation, batting out of order, etc. To me, the game is about the players, not the coaches. I don't want the players punished for a coach's mistake. And I've made substitution errors in the past, so I understand that they happen and are not usually intentional. I haven't made one in quite a while, as I tend to learn from my mistakes.
I've seen too many situations where coaches (mostly Dads) make the game more about themselves and ruin it. And I guess I just don't want to win at all costs, or at the expense of players. I volunteer my time to provide the players with the opportunity to play and improve. They don't play so I can coach. I created a different thread to discuss calling time to burn the clock in tournaments--in that thread there are clearly different viewpoints.
OK, I'm off my high horse now. Again, just my opinion. There certainly is a lot of room for opposing viewpoints.
PS. A similar situation actually happened to me earlier this season. My ace was playing 3b one game and when she got on base I attempted to put a courtesy runner in for her. The opposing coach pointed it out right away, and I thought, "Duh. I'm an idiot." I was really glad he didn't wait and try to "catch" me in my mistake.
Allin69 said "I'm not sure if the OP is asking the question in terms of when is the best time to question the substitution so as to hurt the other team (i.e., player called out and ejected), or whether the OP is asking from a sportsmanship standpoint (for lack of a better description).
Instead of wording it "as to hurt the other team", why not word it as to help their team?
If this is non-competitive ball I would agree with your philosophy, but in competitive ball I would have to help my team the best I know how within the confines of the rules.
Managers and coaches are just as much a part of the team as the players and have to abide by the playing rules as well.
I do see the point about sportsmanship and making sure the game's for the girls, but I also think that it is a coach's responsibility to coach her or his own team. I think the rules are set up such that if I have to police the other team's substitution choices, they might risk a penalty for making an illegal move. But I actually would feel a little bad getting the "courtesy runner" ejected as an illegal player - even though it is not my fault the other coach was asleep at the switch. (In some other case the coach might be trying to pull a fast one. But in this case I'm sure that the coach was not.)
In this case, I am still not sure if the "penalty" as an illegal substitution would have been enforced. I am wondering if the "courtesy runner" would have been declared a pinch runner/substitute, even though announced as a courtesy? I actually didn't want that, I just wanted the original batter running the bases. But if I was sure we would have gotten an out, I probably would have waited to ask. (But as I mentioned and as the above poster implied, I would have felt more than a little bad about getting the runner ejected.)
Think of it this way: When a coach sends the wrong player up to bat or puts in an illegal courtesy runner, whether intentionally or in error, that coach is taking an illegal advantage over your team. It affects the actual play, not as you say just something about the coaches...the illegal player might win the game by being a faster runner or better hitter. If you let him/her off with no penalty you have rewarded (or at least not punished) bad behavior. It is necessary to police this kind of thing when you catch it because next time you might not catch it. The offending coach needs to be taught a lesson. If anyone is guilty of bad sportsmanship it is the coach who carelessly or by design sends in the wrong player, not the coach who sees that he is penalized for it.
Like I said, I know there are different points of view. That's what makes for discussion here. I guess the difference for me is that I would point out a mistake before there are consequences (i.e., outs, ejections, etc.) rather than wait and try to "catch" a coach making a mistake. The vast majority of times that I've been in this spot, it has been an honest mistake, but occasionally it does seem deliberate. As far as teaching a lesson, I believe that any coach who would try to cheat would try it again. Unfortunately, it wouldn't just be the coach who got punished, but his/her players. That's what I want to avoid. Back to "teaching a lesson," when it appears deliberate by another coach, I'm happy to call it out, thinking "nice try, coach."
But, rules are rules and I understand that some coaches want to do everything they can within the rules to help their team win. I guess my differing opinion is basically based on how far I'm willing to go in that regard.
Here's an example from last weekend. Our second game was back-to-back. I literally had less than 3 minutes to fill out a lineup card b/c the umpire said we were starting right away. No big deal, usually, but it caused me to put the same uniform # down twice on the card. I have a #21 and a #24, but I wrote #24 for both players, one of which was listed as a sub. Later in the game, when I tried to enter the real "21" as a sub, the umpire showed me my mistake after he noticed it on the card. I apologized and said it was an honest mistake b/c I was rushing to get the card done. He went over the talk to the opposing coach. Honestly, I didn't know what consequence there would be (I still don't), but all I could think of was that my sub might not be able to play, and worst case, I would get ejected. The game was tied in the 5th. The opposing coach said "no problem" and the error was fixed. Assuming there was a penalty for my error, I'm glad the other coach didn't penalize my player for my mistake. As far as a lesson, I'll be sure to double check all my uniform numbers on the card going forward.
There should have been no penalty. As long as you had the correct name, the number should be fixed, accept the sub and play on.
That is one of the things umpires should be checking for when accepting the line-up card (duplicate numbers).
I realize many don't but in my opinion it has to do with how seriously you take your job.
Irish, I'm wondering, what would you have called if I'd waited until after a pitch and then pointed out that a courtesy runner for the 3rd baseman is not allowed.
Out and ejection? Would you have allowed "we meant PINCH runner not courtesy runner" and proceeded from there? Any other approaches I haven't thought of?
BTW I asked this of the UIC after the game, and he said he would have just put the 3B back in the game, no penalty. Which to me seems correct for a rec game but not for a game in the State championship tourney - what if the first pitch had been hit into play, after all?
I could be wrong on this, but here goes:
I believe if you had waited, the illegal courtesy runner is removed from the base and disqualified (not ejected), and either another substitute or the re-entered starter is put on base. There is no out recorded for this violation. But I believe the substitution is valid, meaning that the third baseman has exhausted her one allowed re-entry.
If the pitch resulted in a batted ball and the illegal courtesy runner advanced, I understand from ASA rule 4-6-C-6 that the advance is legal. But she is still removed and disqualified, and a legal substitute or re-entered starter is put on the base.
I'm not so sure the onus is on the umpire to "fix" the coach's mistake. In other words, should the coach come back after the illegal courtesy runner is discovered and say, "Oh, Blue, I meant for her to be a pinch-runner, not a courtesy runner," too bad. The coach is responsible for making the right announcement.
So, No out in ASA for an illegal offensive sub?
That's interesting. I would have thought ASA and FED had the same penalty for offensive illegal subs.
Illegal courtesy runner I would think is a runner that is running for F1 or F2 and is not eligible to be a courtesy runner.
A runner for someone other then F1 or F2 would be a sub no matter what the OM said it was.