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2041 Views 23 Replies Latest reply: Jul 27, 2010 6:30 AM by Allin69 RSS 1 2 Previous Next
FourSeam Amateur 8 posts since
Mar 25, 2001
Currently Being Moderated

Jul 13, 2010 11:37 PM

Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

If you think this subject has been beat to death, skip this post.  I'm bringing it up again because it seemed to me that the last thread on the subject was not totally conclusive.

 

The only rule book I have handy is ASA 2010 and it is unequivocal:  A tie goes to the runner.

 

Rule 8 Section C 7 says:  When on a force play a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base.

 

A tie, which is "at the time as" is later than "before" and does not satisfy the rule.

 

In plain English, if I got to the station at the same time as the train, I did not get there before the train did.

 

I think there is some confusion between what the rule says and what the umpire sees.  I've seen in some forum the argument that there cannot be a tie because it is the umpire's job to make a decision.  That's nonsense.  I'm not a professional but I've done enough umpiring to know that you can see a tie, at least it appears so within the limitations of human eyesight.  If the umpire sees it as a tie, then the umpire did not see the defense get there before the runner and should call the runner safe by rule.

 

I've even seen it said by an umpire in a forum that if it's a tie, and the defense has made a bang bang play to make it so, he calls the runner out, or, if the runner has made an exceptional slide to gain a tie then  he calls the runner safe.  Again, nonsense.

 

Can't find the rule quickly but I'm sure the ASA rule wording on appealing leaving too soon on a caught fly ball is the same...the runner is tagged or an appeal made before the runner returns to the base.  Again, tie goes to the runner.

 

Don't have other rule sets handy but I believe this same wording is in Fed and Little league.

 

So, are we clear on that?

 

 

  • rhughes18 Pro 114 posts since
    Feb 18, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Jul 14, 2010 4:44 PM (in response to FourSeam)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    By the letter of the rules a tie would go to the runner.

     

    As an umpire there is no such thing as a tie, and if I ever see one I will call the runner safe.

     

    Are you wanting umpires to make safe calls on all bangers.

     

     

    Not saying a tie cannot happen, but have you ever seen a slo-mo of a banger that was a tie?             I haven't

     

    Every slo-mo I have seen shows there was not a tie, and more times then not the slo-mo reinforced the umpire's call.

     

    (Added: When a play is so close, and the umpire is undecided, they will use the play itself to decide the call.  If a runner hustles and the defense initialy bobbles the ball then more times then not the call will be safe. 

    If a fielder makes a good play then the call will most likely be out.

    Sometimes on a great play that the runner appears to just barely beat it out more times then not the call will be out.

     

    Not saying it is right or wrong, but it sure makes for a more entertaining game then having great plays going unrewarded.

     

    If F5 makes a diving stop on a sharp hit ball down the third base line and threw a sharp liner from her knees to first and the umpire called a banger safe, everyone even the OM would be scratching their heads and the DM most likely would or should get tossed.)

     

    (typo: changed fielder from F6 to F5)

  • Delaware ASA UIC Pro 76 posts since
    Jan 9, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Jul 14, 2010 5:23 PM (in response to New York Lady Cobras)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    (Added: When a play is so close, and the umpire is undecided, they will use the play itself to decide the call. If a runner hustles and the defense initialy bobbles the ball then more times then not the call will be safe.
    If a fielder makes a good play then the call will most likely be out.



    Disagree. My call is the call. I do not take the play into consideration.

    Not saying it is right or wrong, but it sure makes for a more entertaining game then having great plays going unrewarded.

     

    If it was that great a play, it wouldn't have been close enough to be the subject of this conversation.

     

    The umpire's job is to make a call, not to "reward" anyone for anything.

  • Allin69 Amateur 29 posts since
    Dec 8, 2004
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Jul 14, 2010 7:30 PM (in response to FourSeam)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    Question--on "banger" plays at 1st, how does an umpire have time to take into consideration what occurred during the play when deciding safe or out? The calls always seem to be "banger" too (i.e, made right away). The play is what it is. Either the runner beats the throw or she does not. The thought that umpires have time to do anything but watch the bag and listen for the ball seems highly implausible to me.

  • rhughes18 Pro 114 posts since
    Feb 18, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Jul 16, 2010 4:52 PM (in response to Allin69)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    You've never seen an infielder make a great play on a ball, and as he is throwing to the base think to yourself the benefit of the doubt goes to the defense.

     

     

    Or do you just call the game with no regard to what is going on, and with 2 outs in the final inning of a perfect game call the runner safe on a play that was so close that you yourself had a doubt.

     

     

    Are you kidding me all great plays are usually close.

     

    Name me one great play you have seen this season that wasn't even close.

  • rhughes18 Pro 114 posts since
    Feb 18, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Jul 16, 2010 4:57 PM (in response to rhughes18)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    A good umpire is aware of what is happening in the game and is able to think quickly on the fly.

     

    I don't know if you have umpired, but if an umpire is not thinking constantly than they are probably not doing a very good job.

  • rhughes18 Pro 114 posts since
    Feb 18, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jul 16, 2010 5:32 PM (in response to rhughes18)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    How many plays have you seen that were so close you weren't absolutely sure what the correct call should be?

     

    If this has never happened to an umpire then that umpire is lying to their self.

     

    99.9% of the time I am absolutley sure of the call, but once or maybe twice in a HS season I will get a doubt and I will use the play itself to sway my doubt to certainty.

  • Delaware ASA UIC Pro 76 posts since
    Jan 9, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Jul 17, 2010 10:13 AM (in response to rhughes18)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    You've never seen an infielder make a great play on a ball, and as he is throwing to the base think to yourself the benefit of the doubt goes to the defense.



    Correct.


    Or do you just call the game with no regard to what is going on, and with 2 outs in the final inning of a perfect game call the runner safe on a play that was so close that you yourself had a doubt.



    Just a wee bit melodramatic, aren't we?

    I do my job and call the game I see.

    Are you kidding me all great plays are usually close.

    Name me one great play you have seen this season that wasn't even close.

     

    How about half Brooks Robinson or Ozzie Smith made look routine?

     

    If that is your criteria for a great play, I'm willing to bet you are easily awed.

     

    Saw a couple yesterday in a college showcase.  Had a couple good SS make a handful or so of amazing plays on balls many wouldn't come close to getting. 

     

    One was a banger at 1B, a few barely deserved a loud verbal and a couple were safe.  But the plays were still great plays, the result is irrelevant.

     

  • rhughes18 Pro 114 posts since
    Feb 18, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Jul 20, 2010 1:49 PM (in response to FourSeam)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    Out of curiosity, have you ever been in doubt about a call, and if so, what did you use to come to a decision?

  • rhughes18 Pro 114 posts since
    Feb 18, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jul 20, 2010 2:29 PM (in response to rhughes18)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    We have all seen some replays where MLB umpires have made calls and the replay shows them to be wrong. 

     

    How many plays have you seen that you thought were ties?

     

    How many of those do you think a replay would show you to be wrong?

     

     

     

     

    My point is when an umpire is undecided it is better to error on the side that performed their task the best, not to call all these plays safe.

     

     

    In these rare instances when the play is so close that without replay the true outcome is uncertain, the umpire must use something to sway their decision.

     

    Your stance is these should be called "Safe".  

     

    Not sure what other umpires use, or maybe they just toss the proverbial coin and you get whatever pops into their head at the time.

  • Delaware ASA UIC Pro 76 posts since
    Jan 9, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Jul 21, 2010 6:34 PM (in response to rhughes18)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    Out of curiosity, have you ever been in doubt about a call, and if so, what did you use to come to a decision?

     

    Never said I haven't questioned a call. Don't know an umpire who doesn't.  Just because my eyes feed my brain certain information doesn't mean it is absolute.

     

    I will use anything available, sound, reaction, etc.  Barring something indicating an out, the ruling is safe.

     

    However, all umpires have questions about certain calls, it happens and until you put four umpires on every base, four in the outfield and four on the dish, there will always be questionable calls.

     

  • lennynyr Rookie 5 posts since
    May 3, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Jul 23, 2010 9:45 AM (in response to Delaware ASA UIC)
    Re: Tie goes to the runner, revisited.

    Having to think about a tie makes it an unnecessary decision for you to be concerned with.  Simply put,as some others have already posted, if the throw beats the runner, he's out, otherwise the runner is safe.  Arriving at the same time means the throw did not beat the runner so the runner is safe.  Why make things more complicated than needed.  

  • rhughes18 Pro 114 posts since
    Feb 18, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Jul 23, 2010 3:14 PM (in response to lennynyr)
    Why?

    What is unnecessary about having your head in the game and being prepared for those 50/50 calls?

     

    As I said previously I am 99.9% (999 in a thousand, or 1 to 2 a season) sure of every call I make, but when one of those plays happens and they always seem to happen at a pivotal point in a game, I want to be sure I error on the side of good play.

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