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3309 Views 31 Replies Latest reply: Nov 3, 2010 10:19 AM by Pete_Booth 1 2 3 Previous Next
laguna_brewers Pro 79 posts since
Feb 24, 2008
Currently Being Moderated

Oct 27, 2010 9:39 AM

Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

Before this quickly degenerates into a bashing contest of my partner, I will say that we talked after the game about this situation and everything got resolved from an on-the-field perspective.  What I'm looking for is some other perspectives of how it could have been handled, if there really is a different outcome possible.

 

Now my story.  LL Minors (why do the weirdest plays ALWAYS happen in Minors), 1 out, R2 and R3.  BR hits a fly to CF, R2 "successfully" tags up on the catch and tries to advance, but a brain-dead coach is not giving R3 any advice, so he is just standing on the base.  {That part is important}.  I'm BU, in C, and on the fly ball, PU has "Catch-No Catch".  Catch is made, and R2 breaks for 3rd.  I repeat the "Catch" call for out #2, and move between 2nd and 3rd to see where the play is going to take me.  Half-way to 3rd, R2 decides to retreat back to 2B, because 3rd is still occupied.

 

From the PU's look, he figures that R2 is returning to touch up, and the ball comes back into 2B ahead of him, where F4 catches it and steps on the base Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???.  On the catch, PU barks out, "That's 3", and the defense begins to bolt off the field.  To my surprise, the PU poached what should have been my call.  As the players are leaving the field, the brain-dead 3rd base coach decides to wake up and tells his players to keep running (and rightly so).  PU insisted again that "That's 3", so now I'm hung out to dry when the coach is asking me to overrule him.........

 

I simply pointed to the PU and told the coach that the call was made, and the PU is the only one who can change it.  I didn't know what else to tell him.

 

Can that bell be unrung?  I would not imagine so, even with the blown call that wasn't his to begin with.

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Oct 27, 2010 9:51 AM (in response to laguna_brewers)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    So PU is standing at the plate, looking at CF, and doesn't see R2 and 2B?

     

    Hmmmmm.

     

    Things lie this happen in minors because neither the players or coaches (and some of the umpires) have much experience.

     

    One way "out of it is for you to let the PU know you have info for him. If he then accepts the info, he can reverse the call and probably place the runners back on 2B and 3B.

     

    Another way (not recommended) is to make the opposite call and thus force a discussion.

  • Pete_Booth Pro 163 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Oct 27, 2010 10:25 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    why do the weirdest plays ALWAYS happen in Minors



    Because in general the coaches and some umpires have NO CLUE on what they are doing. Also, at these games you typically get the less experienced umpires. I am not saying you are inexperienced but it appears your partner was.

    In order to answer properly IMO, we need to know the age of the PU. However, here goes

    From the PU's look, he figures that R2 is returning to touch up, and the ball comes back into 2B ahead of him, where F4 catches it and steps on the base Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???. On the catch, PU barks out, "That's 3",

    Who cares what the PU thought. That call is NOT the PU's so he should keep quiet UNLESS asked by his partner. However, he MADE a call and the particpants reacted.

    PU insisted again that "That's 3", so now I'm hung out to dry when the coach is asking me to overrule him.

     

     

    You are NOT hung out to dry when the coach asks you to over-rule your partner.

     

    Example: assume myself and Rich Ives are doing the game (heaven forbid - just kidding Rich)

     

    I am the BU and Rich was the PU and now the coach comes to me and says: 

     

    "Pete can you over-rule Rich. The runner needed to be tagged."

     

     

    Me: "Skip go talk to Rich"

     

    End of MY discussion with the coach. 

     

    If Rich wants my help he can ON HIS OWN ask for my input BUT the point is you simply direct the coach to the umpire who made the call even if it was YOUR call but another umpire made it.

     

    It's NOT throwing your partner under the bus but observing Umpire protocol.

     

    If the coach protests then you GET involved because it's umpire protocol to get the ruling correct.

     

    If Rich did come to me and said "Pete my bad that's your call - what happened" I explain what happened and we simply fix by  putting back R2/R3 on their respective bases with 2 outs and continue.

     

     

    If your partner was adament and INSISTED his call was correct then the coach needs to do his job and protest the ruling. Then as mentioned above you can NOW interject and get the call right.

     

    After the game you have a chat and explain "the deal"

     

    Pete Booth

  • ROUNDING_3RD Expert 57 posts since
    Jun 6, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Oct 27, 2010 5:04 PM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

     

    That isnt one of those "lets get the call right because it is the right thing to do" that is discussed so frequently on the board

    (unless it might cause embarassment to an  umpire)is it?

  • bobjenkins Pro 120 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Oct 28, 2010 5:50 AM (in response to rp_umpire)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    I'd find a way to talk to PU, find out what he had and make it right.

     

    Maybe he has it as you do -- he assumed R2 left early:  Put R2 back and play on.

     

    Maybe he has it as you, but R2 would have been out on the tag while returning:  Keep the call

     

    Maybe he had a different judgment from you -- he saw R2 leave just early:  Keep the call (even if it wasn't his)

     

     

  • rp_umpire Amateur 12 posts since
    Jan 27, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Oct 28, 2010 6:42 AM (in response to laguna_brewers)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    "If your partner was adament and INSISTED his call was correct then the coach needs to do his job and protest the ruling."

     

    OK, Pete, here's the million dollar question.  What rule is being misapplied?  An umpire making a wrong judgment on a call that isn't even his is still not a misapplication of any rule.

  • HugoTafurst Legend 515 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Oct 28, 2010 7:38 AM (in response to bobjenkins)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    here's the million dollar question. What rule is being misapplied?

     

    PU mistakenly applied the ruling for an appeal out (tag the base, not the player while off the base).

     

    If you read Laguna's post (10/27/2010  11:40am, you will see that PU knew he misapplied the rule.

    "after the game when we discussed it, he knew he booted the call"

     

    Send an email to me at rsgfl@aim.com..... I'll give you my Swiss bank account number to deposit the million $$$.

     

    Sorry Pete, you snooze, you loose.....





    oops

  • Mr_Umpire Amateur 8 posts since
    Mar 11, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Oct 28, 2010 1:43 PM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    Not if he judged the runner left early.  Then, no rule was misapplied.  Only misjudged.  No protest to be made regardless of how bad it was.





    Don't  settle for a "That's just the way it is answer". Question everything  until you get an irrefutable or understandable answer.

  • rp_umpire Amateur 12 posts since
    Jan 27, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Oct 28, 2010 2:26 PM (in response to Mr_Umpire)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    PU mistakenly applied the ruling for an appeal out (tag the base, not the player while off the base).

    If you read Laguna's post (10/27/2010 11:40am, you will see that PU knew he misapplied the rule.
    "after the game when we discussed it, he knew he booted the call"

    Send an email to me at rsgfl@aim.com..... I'll give you my Swiss bank account number to deposit the million $$$.

    Sorry Pete, you snooze, you loose.....

     

    Hugo, when the umpire admitted he "booted" the call, I took that to mean he believes the runner didn't tag up.  The wording of the original post seems to back that up.

     

    Therefore, it remains in the realm of judgment, albeit bad judgment. 

     

    So, alas, no million for you!

  • HugoTafurst Legend 515 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Oct 28, 2010 3:23 PM (in response to rp_umpire)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    We read it differently -  I guess only Laguna has the answer as to whether the boot was the rule or the judgement- or now that I think about it, maybe even the fact that he made booted it meaning that he made a call that wasn't his......

     

    So, alas, no million for you!

    Damn, I could have used that money, too - just had to replace a starter in my car and purchase some high priced orthotics for my plate and base shoes......

    ;-(

     





    oops

  • Pete_Booth Pro 163 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Oct 29, 2010 8:01 AM (in response to HugoTafurst)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    OK, Pete, here's the million dollar question. What rule is being misapplied?




    from the OP

    + From the PU's look, he figures that R2 is returning to touch up, and the ball comes back into 2B ahead of him,

    where F4 catches it and steps on the base

    but R2 had successfully tagged up, so there needs to be a tag]. +

     

    Pretty straight forward

     

    1. B1 did NOT become a runner so there was no force play.

     

    2. R2 tagged properly so he needs to be tagged in order for the defense to get the out.

     

    A RULE was MISSAPPLIED - plain and Simple

     

    This was NOT about judgement.

     

    Hugo when you get the money make certain you give me my "cut" or Uncle Vinny will be paying you a visit.

     

    Pete Booth

  • Kyle_ Legend 556 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Oct 29, 2010 8:41 AM (in response to ROUNDING_3RD)
    Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???

    I'm not a "get the call right" umpire, but a "get the procedure right" guy.

     

    Manager to PU: I'm wondering why you called my runner out.

     

    PU: He didn't tag up.

     

    Manager: I'm pretty sure he was standing on the bag as the catch was made. Would you mind asking your partner for help?

     

    THAT'S what should have happened.

     

    You did the right thing be deferring to your partner. The manager just needed to do his job. Let him know the next time you see him, and everyone gets a little bit smarter in your league. And that's what it's all about in LL, right?

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