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8322 Views 58 Replies Latest reply: Nov 17, 2010 8:49 PM by yaBLUEit 1 2 3 4 Previous Next
yaBLUEit Pro 69 posts since
Oct 16, 2005
Currently Being Moderated

Nov 11, 2010 8:04 PM

Catcher INT and OPTIONS

I'm referring to the type of catcher INT whereas a batter's attempt to hit a pitched ball is obstructed by the catcher. The 'thwap' of a bat contacting the catcher's mitt. That. Been in discussion with a fellow blue who insists that the offense ALWAYS gets option upon CI. My take is that the offense gets option ONLY if an OUT is made somewhere as a PLAY resulting from a FAIR batted ball with CI, or is otherwise LIVE. Say its a declared FOUL ball upon CI. Does the offense have the OPTION to allow the batter to remain at bat, or is it DEAD BALL, NO OPTION, batter awarded 1st base, runners advance only if forced? OBR/MLB 6.08(c) and ASA 8-1.D. The words if and play seem to be vital words here.

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Nov 11, 2010 6:49 PM (in response to yaBLUEit)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTIONS

    Ya Blue.......your fellow umpire is correct, the OT can take the Int or opt to take any  action(s) that might have ensued.   Example:  R3 with two outs and game tied in last inning.  Pitch on which the catcher interferes with gets by the catcher and the R3 scores?  Which option would you as a OM take?   If you automatically enforced the Int rule, the batter would get first, but the R3 would still be at 3B.     TM

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Nov 11, 2010 8:22 PM (in response to yaBLUEit)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTIONS

    As far as I know the rule makes no such distinction ya blue?  Why would a team take the foul ball over putting the batter on first?    TM

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    5. Nov 12, 2010 6:36 AM (in response to yaBLUEit)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTIONS

    All right, I'm confused.  First off, why are you referencing ASA?  The ASA rules have no bearing on baseball.  Are you asking about CI rulings in baseball games or softball games?

     

    As far as I know, there are still two schools of thought regarding interpretation of the CI rule.  JEA requires that the batter actually put the ball in play (hit it fairly) for the CI option to be availalble.  If he doesn't put it in play, then there is no option.  This is what I have in my copy of JEA:

     

    "Professional Interpretation:  Catcher interference is any physical act which interferes with the batter while he is preparing or attempting to offer at a pitched ball.

     

    "Interference by any other fielder most likely would be committed by a third baseman or first baseman charging home in play situations as described in Rule 7.07.

     

    "A play following interference should be construed to mean a play which results from a ball being batted despite the interference."

     

    J/R, on the other hand, treats all continuous action after CI as pertinent for the final ruling.  The only time CI is ignored is when all runners, including the BR, advance to their next bases.  If one runner doesn't advance, then the manager has the option to accept the penalty or the result of that continuous action.

     

    So if the batter fouls off the pitch, then CI is enforced, unless the manager wants the result of continuous action (and why he would, since nothing really happened as a result of the foul ball, I have no idea).  If the pitch isn't batted and the ball goes to the backstop, then JEA would say that CI has to be enforced since no play ensued.  But J/R would say that the manager has the choice of accepting the continuous action after the pitch got past the catcher, or accepting the penalty.

     

    I know that doesn't really answer your question, and perhaps there has been a consensus between Jim Evans and Rick Roder on how to treat CI.  But I do want to comment on one thing you said in your original post.  You don't have to have an out for the option to be in effect should the batter put the ball in play.  All you have to have is the failure of one runner not advancing. 

     

    Say, for example, you have R3, and he attempts to steal home on the squeeze when the batter bunts a fly ball in the infield.  As R3 returns to third, the ball drops uncaught, and everyone's safe.  Now you have R1 and R3, and no out was recorded.  The manager has the option of accepting the penalty (R3 scores, and R1 remains at first), or the play (R1 and R3).  Why he would accept it, I don't know, but he has that option.

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Nov 12, 2010 6:27 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTIONS

    Thanks Manny for the very articulate  answer to this poster.     TM

  • Pete_Booth Pro 163 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Nov 12, 2010 9:44 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTIONS

    J/R, on the other hand, treats all continuous action after CI as pertinent for the final ruling.  The only time CI is ignored is when all runners, including the BR, advance to their next bases.  If one runner doesn't advance, then the manager has the option to accept the penalty or the result of that continuous action.


     

    Manny not quite true for JR

     

    JR defines a "play" as an act by the defense in putting out a runner. In this OP we had a foul ball hence no play. Therefore, in the OP both Evans and JR agree Enforce the CI penalty.

     

     

    IMO, here is where JR / Evans disagree.

     

    R2 stealing on the pitch. B1 is interfered with by F2 WITHOUT hitting the ball. F2 in the mean-time trys to throw out R2 going to third BUT throws the ball away or into DBT.

     

    According to Evans, since the ball was NOT hit, the ball becomes dead immediately and the CI penalty is enforced. According to JR since the defense was trying to put out a runner (R2 going to third base) the offense now has the option of the merits of the play vs. the merits of the CI penalty. In my example, chances are the coach would want R2's run.

     

    That's the "grey area" in the CI ruling.

     

     

    Pete Booth

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Nov 12, 2010 10:30 AM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTION3

    Peter, sitill confused (whats new?).  Why would a ball being foul change the making a play on a runner rule?  Example:  R3,  1 out and batter interfered with but hits a foul fly ball to left field in which the R3 goes to tag up and makes home beating the throw?  Would you still enforce Int and award batter 1B and return the R3 to third?  Sorry it seems contrary.    TM

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Nov 12, 2010 11:23 AM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTIONS

    Pete_Booth wrote:

     

    Manny not quite true for JR

     

    JR defines a "play" as an act by the defense in putting out a runner. In this OP we had a foul ball hence no play. Therefore, in the OP both Evans and JR agree Enforce the CI penalty.

     


    I think we're saying the same thing, Pete.  I'm not disputing J/R's definition of play.  I just pointed out that J/R allows any continuous action to be a factor, whether or not the batter puts the ball in play.  J/R wouldn't allow a manager to accept the play after a foul ball because there is no continuous action to be had.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Nov 12, 2010 11:39 AM (in response to TheMouth__1)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTION3

    TheMouth__1 wrote:

     

    Peter, sitill confused (whats new?).  Why would a ball being foul change the making a play on a runner rule?  Example:  R3,  1 out and batter interfered with but hits a foul fly ball to left field in which the R3 goes to tag up and makes home beating the throw?  Would you still enforce Int and award batter 1B and return the R3 to third?  Sorry it seems contrary.    TM


    TM, your batted ball example did not result in a foul.  It resulted in a catch.  A caught fly ball is never a fair ball or a foul ball.  It's simply a caught ball, no matter where on the field that catch takes place.  Fair or foul comes into play when the ball is uncaught.

     

    So in your play, it doesn't matter that F7 caught the ball in foul territory.  It's just a catch for CI purposes, and the manager has the option of taking the penalty (batter goes to first, R3 returns to third) or the play (R3 scores, batter's out).

  • Pete_Booth Pro 163 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Nov 12, 2010 12:23 PM (in response to TheMouth__1)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTION3

    Peter, sitill confused (whats new?).  Why would a ball being foul change the making a play on a runner rule?  Example:  R3,  1 out and batter interfered with but hits a foul fly ball to left field in which the R3 goes to tag up and makes home beating the throw?  Would you still enforce Int and award batter 1B and return the R3 to third?  Sorry it seems contrary.    TM

    I echo Manny

     

    Your sitch is different because we have a catch. Foul / fair doesn't matter here. It ONLY matters if the ball is UNCAUGHT. If the ball is FOUL and uncaught it is a FOUL ball and the CI penalty is enforced - NO Option for the coach.

     

    If the ball is caught the OC now has an option especially if R3 tagged and scored.

     

    The bottom line is that there is a "grey area" in the CI rule IF the ball is NOT hit but there is continuous action following it like a runner stealing, F2 throwing the ball away.

     

    Pete Booth

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Nov 12, 2010 12:57 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTION3

    Fair/Foul is NOT related to whether or not it was caught. It only matters where it was when first touched (etc.)  Read the definitions of fair/foul and other rules.

     

    Watch the pros - they signal the fair/foul no matter whether it was caught or not.

     

    5.09(e) says runners return if a foul ball is not caught - implying a foul ball can be caught.

     

    Of course,  6.05 A batter is out when—

     

    (a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder;

     

    reinforces it.

     

     

     

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Nov 12, 2010 6:29 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTIONS

    Pete and Manny, thanks for the informative clarifications.   TM

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Nov 12, 2010 6:33 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Catcher INT and OPTIONS

    oops

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