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8523 Views 56 Replies Latest reply: Dec 31, 2010 9:46 AM by Pete_Booth RSS 1 2 3 4 Previous Next
Pete_Booth Pro 163 posts since
May 25, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Dec 17, 2010 11:51 AM

Protested Game Roll Back or not

Hi all:

 

Normally I do not like bringing threads from one Forum to another, BUT this Forum has been dead for quite some time so I thought I would post to get the concesses of the LL experts on this site.

 

Here is the Thread

 

This is a general game management / procedures question.
LL Majors (12U) Regular Season


DM replaces the pitcher who then delivers a pitch to a batter who is put out.
OM discovers F1 is ineligible and lodges a protest.


DM KNOWS OM is right and replaces ineligible F1 with an eligible F1. DM offers to roll back the at bat by ineligible F1 and start over, rather than possibly bring both teams back out to play the game again.


OM agrees to this as he also does not want to replay.


1. Can the UIC allow this in a regular season game?
2. Should the UIC allow this in a regular season game?

 

 


If you wish you can check out the responses at Umpire.Org

 

There were differences of opinion on this matter but in general the following is a synopsis.

 

 

1. An IP is discovered. In the OP it happens to be F1

 

Do you replace the IP and continue the game per 4.19 or

 

Do you "roll back" meaning disregard the pitches that the IP threw and "go back" and re-do if you will starting with the Eligable F1?

 

Pete Booth

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Dec 18, 2010 7:01 PM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    I honestly don't understand how there can be a difference of opinion on what to do here.  There is nothing in the rules that would allow an umpire to "roll back" a game and disregard the fact an ineligible pitcher participated in the game.  What's done is done, and the only thing that can guarantee that the two teams won't come back to replay the game is for the OM to not formally lodge a protest at the end of the game.

     

    And even if the OM does protest, the Protest Committee doesn't have to make the two teams come back to play from the point of protest.  The Committee could decide that the outcome of the game was not significantly affected by the pitching infraction, and allow the results of the game to stand.

     

    One thing is certain, though.  Any umpire who agrees to ignore the infraction and allow the batter to come back to the plate with an eligible pitcher on the mound is an umpire who is negligent in his duties.  There are rare cases where a do-over is allowed, and this ain't one of them.

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Dec 18, 2010 10:04 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    The other side of the argumemt is in two parts

     

    1) The managers, on their own, reached the same conclusion that the protest committe should (not would, should) reach.  Therefore the rollback was nothing more than would have happened anyhow, with no hassle, protest, reschedule, fuss, or muss.  One would also have to protest the rollback issue - but it wasn't protested either.

     

    2) As only a team manager can lodge a protest, and there was none filed, then essentially the event "never happened".  As an umpire you can be as frustrated as you wish but there's really nothing you can do.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Dec 19, 2010 5:08 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    So, if both managers agree to run the bases backwards in today's game, just for the fun of it, I'm supposed to allow it because they have assured me neither one of them will lodge a protest?

     

    And who is responsible for ensuring the game is played in accordance with the rules?  I don't recall reading in 9.01(a) that the managers make that call.  To say there's not much I can do is wrong.  I can enforce 4.15(5) and walk off the field if it comes down to it, and then the board is going to end up having to reschedule the game after all.  I would obviously hope it doesn't go that far, but that option is available.

     

    If the DM offers to let the same batter hit again with an eligible pitcher on the mound, then by all means, go ahead.  This would be nothing more than a batting-out-of-order violation that will eventually end up correcting itself if the manager doesn't say anything about it.  But the previous out is still a valid out because the rules as written--which the umpire is required to enforce--don't allow for the out to come off the board when an ineligible pitcher pitches.  An umpire who goes ahead and allows the rollback just because it would have happened anyhow is exceeding his authority.  Play the game by the danged rules.  Don't ignore the rules because it's convenient to do so.

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Dec 19, 2010 7:01 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    As only a team manager can lodge a protest, and there was none filed, then essentially the event "never happened".  As an umpire you can be as frustrated as you wish but there's really nothing you can do.

     

    Of course there's something that you can do.

    1.) Replace the ineligible pitcher with an eligible one.

    2.) Record any protest that is filed and continue the game.

    3.) Don't allow the coaches to invent their own rulings.

    4.) The out stands.  There's no "do-overs".

    5.) Eject anyone who tries to circumvent your authority.

     

    In the original thread, the argument of those who wanted to fix the problem immediately, and circumvent the Protest Committee was "It's only Little League.  Why make the kids come back"?  Those people who say "It's only Little League" aren't taking the game serious.  And they're doing a disservice to the kids who are playing the game.

     

    SOAPBOX ALERT!

    The kids are there to learn the game of baseball.  But they're also there to learn valuable life lessons.  Character - Courage - Loyality.

    When the kids learn that there are ramifications for their mistakes, (even the innocent ones) that builds character.

    The coaches should have the courage to admit their mistakes and accept the results.

    By circumventing the rules, they're not being loyal to the program.  They're being loyal to their own agenda.

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Dec 19, 2010 2:16 PM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    League official hat on:

     

    Sometimes you have to see the bigger picture and go with it. This is one of them.

     

    Do you reall enforce all the rules as written?

     

    Tell me -if manager "A" protests an illegal uniform on a player would you

    1) Tell him to buzz off?

    2) Have the offending player fix the problem and play on?

    3) Force manager "A" to file a protest and toss the offending player?

     

    Do you enforce the coach box rules?

     

    Do you enforce F3 holding a runner on with a foot foul rule - or do you wait for a complaint like the interps say to do?

     

    ALl rules are not equal.

     

    Pick you fight. This isn't one of them. They aren't running the bases backward or going with 4 outs per inning or allowing big barell bats or having a 15 year-old pitch.  They fixed a problem the same way as should happen if the whole protest process was followed. They behaved like grown-ups, didn't throw hissy fits, and reached the proper (in the long run) result.

     

    Or do we think we should somewhow teach them a lesson and make them go through the whole process only to reach the same conclusion and come back,and resume the game at the same point they already agreed to do?  Who looks like a jerk then? Who wasted a whole lot of effort for no gain?  I know our officers - I'm one of them - if you brought this to them they'd be saying the same thing- "they had it fixed - why are you here?"

     

    We got the desired result. Play on.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Dec 19, 2010 2:37 PM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    I once was a league official.  I'm also a district official.  This isn't a uniform violation or a coach who has a foot outside the box.  This is the use of an ineligible pitcher that has very serious ramifications.  In tournament play, this earns a manager an automatic two-game suspension at a minimum, and could lead to a team being kicked out of further play.  As a league and district official, I would be pissed at any managers who took game management away from the umpire and do what they think is okay.

     

    Yeah, in the long run, it probably saved the parents and kids the headache of returning to the park later (assuming, of course, that the protest committee decides to replay the game, which, contrary to your opinion, is NOT something that SHOULD be done.  It's one of a number of options available to the committee that they can exercise.  If they decide the violation did not contribute to the outcome of the game, they should just rule that the results of the game stands.

     

    Which brings up another point.  Why are you so adamant about stating what the committee SHOULD do, but not hold the managers and umpires to the same standard of what THEY SHOULD do?  You can't have it both ways, Rich.

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Dec 19, 2010 2:50 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not
    Manny totallyt agree......play the game by the rules and wait for Williamsport to put a new section in on "D0-Overs"   LOL.   TM
  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Dec 20, 2010 6:11 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    Oh yes he can.  That's his MO

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Dec 20, 2010 6:57 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    We disagree.  Nothing new.

     

    I know the committee has opitions. In my opinion replay from the point IS what SHOULD be done on a protest ruled valid. And that's why I said "should" and not "will" or "must" or "shall" or some similar-meaning word..

     

    Replaying from the start is nonsense.

     

    Saying it had no bearing is an excuse to not actually rule. "Yeah, someone screwed up but so what? No big deal. See you next game." No consequences? Why? Grow a pair. Decide something.

     

    Anyone who has been around baseball (especially LL age games) knows that many strange and amazing things happen that could have been affected (or not) by the improper action/decision/whatever at the base of the protest. Therefore replay from the point IS what SHOULD be done on a protest ruled valid.

     

    And read the OP. We're talking about this case:  "DM replaces the pitcher who then delivers a pitch to a batter who is put out."   Not some major infraction. One pitch.

     

    BTW - you can't have it both ways either. You're also deciding on what's important and picking what's to be enforced.  If you can decide to not enforce the uniform rule or coach rule you can decide to let the rollback happen.

  • Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Dec 20, 2010 8:54 AM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    I'm on the "No Do-Overs" side.

    Sorry, but it's not up to the managers to decide what should be done.

    The rulebook says if the manger Protests, you write it in the book and finish the game.

    It's up to the Protest Committee to decide what to do.

    In a one pitch one out situation if I'm on the Protest Committee it would be "doubtful" that I would vote to replay the game from that point (maybe that's just me).

    Now, if it were a 1 run game with the bases loaded with 2 outs in the bottom of the last inning, that's a different story.

    But one out in the top of the 4th in a 4 or 5 run game - nope, game results stand (again, that's just me)!

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Dec 20, 2010 1:02 PM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    I guess Rich isn't the only one who thinks it's OK to make up your own rules as you go along.  It happened in the Patriots/Packers game yesterday.  The whole crew got together to actually watch the play (McCourty's hit on Quarless) on the stadium scoreboard and then threw the flag.  Completely contrary to the rulebook, but hey - whatever - it was the right thing to do - right?  Make 'em up as you go.

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Dec 20, 2010 8:50 PM (in response to Mason_Dixon_Blue)
    Re: Protested Game Roll Back or not

    Writing it in the book is only part of it. The manager has to submit it in writing.

     

    4.19(e) "Any protest for any reason whatsoever must be submitted by the manager first to the umpire on the field of play and then in writing to the local league president within 24 hours. The umpire-in-chief shall also submit a report immediately".

     

    The written protest was never submitted.

     

    There is nothing to rule on.

     

    Or do you want to circumvent a rule and make a ruling?

     

    AND for Manny and otheres, 4.19(f) says resume at the point of the infraction.  The RIM lists other options. They are options, not requirements. You can pick any one of them.  I've outlined elsewhere why the RIM listed options are, in my view, BS.

     

    Thered are a lot of "ignore the protest rules" posts here. Why is that OK but ignoring the basic-cause rule not OK?

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