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5086 Views 30 Replies Latest reply: Feb 14, 2011 10:47 PM by Kyle_ 1 2 3 Previous Next
Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
May 25, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Feb 11, 2011 3:58 AM

The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

BACKGROUND:  In my previous thread, I had the following sitch:  The rostered F2 made the last out of the inning, so while he is gearing up, another player comes out with a legal catchers mitt and headgear to warm up the pitcher.  In LL rules, this is sufficient for the warmer upper.  However, the PU ruled that anyone who warms up the pitcher must have full catcher's paraphernalia on (including a cup).  [There was NO house rule so specifying.]

 

My thread included some of the wisdom of at least wearing a cup--to which I agree--, but the rule book clearly states all that is necessary, and in this case the manager was 100% compliant with the rules.

 

So what happened?

 

I am going to do my best to accurately portray what I was told. (I got this from a guy I met in a regional tournament from another state.)  But it will be impossible not to embellish some of what happend;  I confess to that early to drive the point to ground, hopefully.

 

The manager was ejected for "arguing with the plate umpire."  The replacement adult notified the PU that the game was being played under protest.

 

A formal protest WAS filed with the BOD.  The manger claimed that he was well within the rules.

 

Here's the punch line:  The BOD exempted the manager from having to sit out the next game, BUT THEY RULED IN FAVOR OF THE UMPIRE!

 

"The umpire may rule in any way that improves safety!"  Period.  End of story.

 

Someone (I do not know who) sent the results of this to the District.  This District chose not to "meddle" in any league's business.

 

In my next game, I am going to insist that all infielders wear catchers masks.  Think that's a good idea?

 

Mike CVUA

  • Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Feb 11, 2011 4:24 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    You said: "The BOD exempted the manager from having to sit out the next game"

    So, there were two mistakes, first the one by the Umoire and second the one by the BOD.

     

    Sorry, the suspension for an ejection is MANDATORY, the BOD can't just say forget about it.

    It was made MANDATORY because umpires complained that the BODs were "routinely" not invoking the suspension penalty on a manager/coach when ejected.

     

    LL has said that if a BOD wants to waive the game suspension for a manager/coach then they need Approval from Williamspot (in essence, a Waiver).

     

    Of course, if they do Waive the Penalty, unless someone complains, how's LL going to know? 

  • Pete_Booth Pro 163 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Feb 11, 2011 5:59 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    Mike with all due respect you still didn't tell us if the kid had a cup on or not. IMO, that's the important issue here not all the "other stuff".

     

    If the kid had no cup on (regardless of what the rule states) then the BOD, DA etc. should side with the umpire and uphold the suspension. If the kid did in fact have a cup on and the umpire still insisted he needs more equipment is a different story.

     

    As I stated I think LL simply forgot to add "protective cup" to the requirements of warming up F1. It's not the first time LL has not "spelled out' exactly what they mean. Remember the "admin removal" fisaco we had at eteamz? IMO, this is similar.

     

    IMO, a simple solution

     

    "Someone" should E-mail District about this and get a resolution PERIOD. Maybe (probably not) WP can issue a memo or something telling "everyone" that a Cup is indeed required to allow someone to warm-up F1.

     

    Let's see a kid cannot slide head first going forward BUT he can warm-up a stud F1 without a cup on. Let's get real here regardless of what the actual rule states.

     

    Pete Booth

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Feb 11, 2011 6:28 AM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    LL did NOT "forget" to require a cup. They do not believe it is necessary.  This is their response (from Dan Kirby, Little League's Director of Risk Management) posted Jan 20 of this year on their Facebook discussion page:

     

    "No cups, shin guards, and chest protectors are required for warmup catchers because basically because they are, for the most part, playing catch. In that sense the warmup catcher is similar to any other defensive player who does not have the requirement to wear a cup.


    "When a batter is placed into the equation with a bat and possible foul ball, or just the distraction of someone swinging a bat in close proximity, it creates the need for additional equipment, including a chest protector, shin guards, and cup.


    "Keep in mind, Rule 1.17 requires that every male player wear an athletic supporter. Any defensive player may also wear a cup, and the local league may have a local rule requiring it."

     

    The BoD was incorrect.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Feb 11, 2011 6:41 AM (in response to Lou_B)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    What Lou correctly stated re a next game mandatory suspension-[for an ejected manager/coach/or player]-not being "overruled" by a local BOD, is embodied in LL Rule 9.05(C); However, the BOD does have the authority to "add-on" to the (next game) Rule 4.07 penalty--if in their judgment, an added penalty is warranted.

     

    As far as the BOD requesting a waiver-[from Williamsport]- in not enforcing the (minimum) next game suspension---"good luck" with that request.

    Generally, by the time a reply  is received from Williamsport, the "next" scheduled game has been played allready.

     

    One of our leagues tried it once. The next game, in two days, was a "key" play-off game for the subject ejected manager's team.

    First.... the league president, with BOD approval, tried to expedite a reply via using the phone. He  was told to put the request, circumstances/why ejected,, etc.,and    reasons for asking for a waiver, in writing.

     

    The written reply came back seven days later-----DENIED!!

     

    Frank!

  • Pete_Booth Pro 163 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Feb 11, 2011 7:43 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup
    No cups, shin guards, and chest protectors are required for warmup catchers because basically because they are, for the most part, playing catch.

     

    I agree if  the kid doesn't squat down. If the warm up F2 is in a squatting position the aforementioned statement is a crock. The warm-up F2 is not simply playing catch. He is in the squatting position and if the ball is pitched in the dirt he is open for injury. As an umpire I have been hit in the cup area because the ball hit the dirt and had NOTHING to do with the batter.

     

    Typical LL. They do NOTHING proactive. A kid will have to sustain some serious injury while warming up F1 and then LL will put the rule in.

     

    Pete Booth

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Feb 11, 2011 7:55 AM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    Whether we agree or not, LL has stated it's position.

     

    And the risk factor is certainly different. An umpire is not at the same level of preparedness as a catcher.  As an umpire you don't have a glove, arent't planning to catch the ball,  and aren't as aware that a pitch might be a pitch in the dirt - a catcher does and is and is.  He's ready, you're not.  BIG difference.

  • Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Feb 11, 2011 8:33 AM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    Pete, I agree, LL should change their rule on warming up a pitcher to be the same as all those other youth leagues that require the player to wear a cup.

    It's time that LL got as safety conscious as all the other youth baseball programs!!! 

  • Kyle_ Legend 556 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Feb 11, 2011 8:55 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    I posed that FB question to WP, regarding the warmup/bullpen catchers not needing a cup. They said it wasn't required.

     

    As a local UIC, that was one of the few local rules that I insisted on. If they squat, they need a cup and shin guards.

     

    So that BoD gets both their rulings wrong. The EJ stands, the umpire can't just make $#!+ up, no matter how noble the cause.

     

    But the district was correct in not overruling things like this at the local level. Instead, perhaps the DA scolded the local BoD, and the Districe UIC had a word with his local counterpart. That woudl be the correct procedure on something like this.

  • Pete_Booth Pro 163 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Feb 11, 2011 10:18 AM (in response to Kyle_)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup
    the umpire can't just make $#!+ up, no matter how noble the cause.

     

     

    Kyle IMO, it's not making up $#! for a noble cause. It's called being SMART.

     

    FWIW: I know most are tired of my FED analogy BUT here goes

     

    FED rule 1-5-4

     

    While in the crouch position, any non-adult warming up F1 at ANY location shall wear a head protector, mask with a throat protector AND protective cup (male only).  These are 18 yr. old young adults.

     

    Other then LL I believe every youth league and higher leagues ala Legion has similar wording when someone is warming up F1.

     

    All I can say is if you allow a kid especially at the young age of say 10-12 to warm-up F1 without a protective cup and said kid gets a serious injury GET READY no matter what the actual rule says. As previously mentioned Typical LL. They WAIT until something happens before instituting something.

     

    Pete Booth

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Feb 11, 2011 11:22 AM (in response to Kyle_)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    As a local UIC, that was one of the few local rules that I insisted on. If they squat, they need a cup and shin guards.

     

     

    Well, that really screws up between-inning warmups and pitcher-in-the-bullpen-warming-up doesn't it - or do you have a pile of subs standing by with a cup and shinguards so they're ready when the regular catcher(s) isn't?

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Feb 11, 2011 11:47 AM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    AAU uses FED.

     

    The Dizzy Dean rule reads:

     

    Any player warming up the pitcher must wear a mask and a cup while in the down or crouch

    position.

     

     

    We know LL says just a mask.

     

    The Legion rule reads:

     

    2. While warming up a pitcher, either in or out of the bullpen, a catcher must wear a mask. Any player

    who refuses to do so shall be ejected from the game.

     

    The Dixie rule reads:

     

    (h) Any player warming up a pitcher on the mound, in a bullpen or elsewhere

    shall wear a catcher’s mask with helmet and throat protector even if the mask has a

    manufactured extension at the bottom of the mask.

     

    The USSSA book doesn't mention it at all.

     

    The PONY rule reads:

     

    Any player serving as a catcher to warm up a pitcher shall wear a mask, whether the pitcher is warming up from the mound, in the bullpen or elsewhere.

     

    The "other guys" don't seem to have on-line rules any more.

  • Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Feb 11, 2011 12:07 PM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    Pete: I agree that in many cases LL waits for injury statistics before implementing rules.

    Is it a good idea for a male player warming up a pitcher to wear a cup - of course it is.

    Is it currently a RULE in LL - no it isn't.

     

    I would venture to say that the reason it is NOT a rule is that LL does not have a history of injuries from players without cups getting seriously injured warming up pitchers.

    Does that mean anything - not to a kid who gets injured !!!

     

    I've been involved more years than I care to count (admit) and to the best of my memory, I've never seen an injury to a player warming up a pitcher.

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Feb 11, 2011 12:33 PM (in response to Pete_Booth)
    Re: The Rest Of the Story--Pitcher Warmup

    From both a liability standpoint and a safety standpoint I don't see any difference between an adult and a "non-adult" (whatever that is - is a "young adult a non-adult?).

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